New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe

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klh

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Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #40 on: 1 Apr 2008, 07:09 pm »
The slow roll-off should also make integration with a sub pretty easy :). Would it be fair to say the full HT will be out in about 6 months?

Kevin Haskins

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #41 on: 1 Apr 2008, 08:59 pm »
I certainly hope so.    The tower version has to be done in time for VSAC 2008 and I'll probably design the MTM center channel concurrently.   


klh

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Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #42 on: 1 Apr 2008, 09:16 pm »
Good... 2 months is even better!

As nice as I'm sure they'll sound with tubes... I'm looking forward to how they sound with the Exodus digital amps. 5 x 180 watts to the center and rears/surrounds and 2 x 400 watts to the towers... that should be awesome!!!

klh

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Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #43 on: 8 Apr 2008, 08:32 pm »
Hey Kevin... PM sent.
« Last Edit: 9 Apr 2008, 08:46 pm by klh »

Kevin Haskins

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #44 on: 10 Apr 2008, 12:22 am »
PM answered!


klh

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Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #45 on: 28 Apr 2008, 05:15 pm »
How's this coming along? You only have about two weeks until VSAC 2008.

Kevin Haskins

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #46 on: 28 Apr 2008, 05:32 pm »
Hmmm... VSAC 2008 is over Memorial Day weekend.    I'm counting about four weeks.


jr1414

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Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #47 on: 28 Apr 2008, 07:32 pm »
So, how is it coming then?  I know you've got a lot of projects going on, but are you still on target?

As good as my Keplers are, I might be ready for the Tycho Brahes for the fronts.

klh

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Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #48 on: 29 Apr 2008, 03:32 am »
Oops. I did a google search before I posted and the board I took the info from said it will start on 05/12/08. Looks like they were off.

Kevin Haskins

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #49 on: 29 Apr 2008, 03:58 am »
So, how is it coming then?  I know you've got a lot of projects going on, but are you still on target?

As good as my Keplers are, I might be ready for the Tycho Brahes for the fronts.

I'm moving along on them.   I'm going to be showing a tower version, using the PE cabinets at VSAC.   When they reach production is more difficult for me to predict than it is with subwoofers.   I work on loudspeakers when I get a chance but they don't pay the bills, subs do....


klh

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Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #50 on: 2 May 2008, 11:08 pm »
Kevin... if the lower cab on the TB was left sealed, would the F3 also be 88Hz? That seems a bit high since these play well into the upper 30's when ported. Just curious as I have a capable sub and have the lower cab sealed might decrease distortion and ease integration with the sub.

Kevin Haskins

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #51 on: 3 May 2008, 02:50 pm »
Kevin... if the lower cab on the TB was left sealed, would the F3 also be 88Hz? That seems a bit high since these play well into the upper 30's when ported. Just curious as I have a capable sub and have the lower cab sealed might decrease distortion and ease integration with the sub.

Pretty close...  We optimized the EX-6.5 around 0.5ft^3 vented so the Qts is low for sealed alignments.     It works.... you just get a high F3.    Note, the F3 is a pretty useless way of looking at the low frequency curve.   It tells you one point on a curve.   How useful is that in describing a curve?   


TerryO

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Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #52 on: 3 May 2008, 05:05 pm »
Kevin... if the lower cab on the TB was left sealed, would the F3 also be 88Hz? That seems a bit high since these play well into the upper 30's when ported. Just curious as I have a capable sub and have the lower cab sealed might decrease distortion and ease integration with the sub.

Pretty close...  We optimized the EX-6.5 around 0.5ft^3 vented so the Qts is low for sealed alignments.     It works.... you just get a high F3.    Note, the F3 is a pretty useless way of looking at the low frequency curve.   It tells you one point on a curve.   How useful is that in describing a curve?   



Mr. Haskins,
That one point is extremely useful for describing a curve. To those of us that indulge in the outer limits of mathematical inquiry, that single point is commonly referred to as "a start". Although your mathematical skills (or Dan Wiggins' for that matter), are hardly a match for mine, I think that upon investigation you'll find that every progression needs to have... "a start".  :green:

You're quite right about using F3 as some sort of determinate. The combination of F3 and F10 is certainly much more useful in obtaining an idea of the "Character" of the bass performance, especially in an actual room. That's the thorny question: What is the typical room that a speaker is going to be used in? If there was, in fact, an actual answer to that one, speakers would be a lot easier to design as the correct amount of room lift or cabin gain could be applied to the design parameters and a completely harmonious outcome would be certain.

Best Regards,
TerryO

klh

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Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #53 on: 7 May 2008, 09:53 pm »
Kevin... since these have a solid in room response down to approximately 30Hz, would you cross them over the sub at 40Hz or 60Hz. I remember reading many years ago that it's a good idea to cross the mains over the sub one octive above the in room F3 if possible. That would indicate 60Hz... what do you think? You have plenty of subs to work on that ;). Poor you :D.

Kevin Haskins

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #54 on: 8 May 2008, 03:18 pm »
Kevin... since these have a solid in room response down to approximately 30Hz, would you cross them over the sub at 40Hz or 60Hz. I remember reading many years ago that it's a good idea to cross the mains over the sub one octive above the in room F3 if possible. That would indicate 60Hz... what do you think? You have plenty of subs to work on that ;). Poor you :D.

The Kepler in the curved wall box has good in-room response down to about 40Hz.    Where you crossover to a sub is dependent upon the room and sub/speaker position.   It is best to just experiment. 

Voodoo Rufus

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #55 on: 17 Jul 2008, 04:28 pm »
Still on the back burner?

Kevin Haskins

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #56 on: 17 Jul 2008, 10:56 pm »
Still on the back burner?

There have been some general change of plans with the speaker kits.    I have an MMT design done with the Peerless Tweeter that I'd release as a free design.   It was the basis for the original Tycho.      I'll continue to sell & support the Kepler but all the future Exodus speaker lineup will be sold as finished product only.       

The future lineup includes a new 1" ceramic dome tweeter we have under development that sits in a 5.25" form-factor horn.    The speakers will utilize the EX-6.5 along with our new tweeter.    They also will be ALL active designs, utilizing a 1U form-factor active amplifier platform.    The amplification is Hypex based UcD technology & their Bruno Putzeys designed SMPS power supply.    The active signal processing is something I've designed on a custom 4-layer board, integrated with the Hypex amps.   

The amplifier platform is flexible enough, that the same unit is used with all the speaker designs.   There are some changes to the signal processing based upon the speaker ordered but the same 1U chassis supports all the designs.   This is somewhat different than most active speakers in that the amplifier is NOT built into the speaker.   The 1U chassis holds both the signal processing & four channels of Hypex amplification for the speakers.    The reason for this is two-fold.   For one, active designs with the amplifier in the speaker suffer from the vibration, heat and other such difficulties of their environment inside the speaker.   They typically don't have the advantage of chassis shielding.    That leads to the second reason, cable problems.    In the pro-world most sources have extremely robust output stages, capable of driving long, high capacitance cable runs.    That isn't necessarily true in the home environment.   Long line-level runs increase the chance of amplifying the noised picked up in the cable runs.  In addition, amplifiers built into the speaker require power cords be run to each speaker.   

Our approach was to keep the amplification in a standard chassis, have simple normal length interconnects from either a 2-channel preamp, or a home theater processor enter the active module just like they would any other amplifier.   They can also be controlled via a 12V trigger just like any other HT amplifier.   The only difference being, that the amplifier has twice the speaker outputs as does a normal amplifier.    This approach also allows the use of standard bi-wire speaker cables and interfaces to get the signal to the speaker.   A standard Canare 4S11, Cardas Crosslink or any number of standard 4-wire speaker cables can be used in the same way a normal speaker cable would be used to get signal to the loudspeaker.   

The reason for active is fairly simple.   The full active designs allow us to do things that just are not possible with passive designs.   I can equalize the bottom, use subsonic filters and HIGHLY configurable crossovers with much tighter accuracy than the passive versions and the design in general, has all the benefits of having individual amplifiers for each transducer.   

The other benefit is efficiency, the active design utilizes amplifier power MUCH more efficiently than a passive design.   I figure there is a good 1.5-1.8 multiplier for amplifier power (100W active = at LEAST 150-180W passive).      This design is going to roughly deliver 140WRMS PER driver into the design.   That would be equivalent to >400W per speaker using our most conservative multiplier.    That is RMS power too, the peak power levels available will be much higher giving us MUCH more effective amplifier power levels.    In a nutshell, we have WAY more peak power for each driver than will ever be needed and you have MUCH more effective coupling between the amplifier & the transducers since there is no passive crossover.     

Also, this is a GREEN design whereby the amplification for a pair of speakers and all the signal processing consume <9W (pair of speakers) at idle.   The power supply is >90% efficient and the modules >92% so this is as efficient as we are likely to ever get in terms of power amplifier design.   The power supply uses Power Factor Correction to achieve much more efficient use of line voltage, in addition to some "Bruno tricks" to optimize transient energy demands in a single-stage SMPS design with unmatched efficiency, EMI emissions and low emitted noise.   In standby mode, the device will consume around 5mA so once again, very green in design in both use and standby.   Due to the efficiency, there is zero need for either active cooling or heatsinks, the chassis provides more than enough heat dissipation and it should never get more than a couple degrees above room temp, even under full-bore use.     The chassis will likely be all aluminum, the PCB lead-free and the entire device not only designed for decades of use, but fully recyclable at the end of its substantial life-cycle.   We have limited resources on this planet so designing SMART, rather than cheap is just wise use of the resources we have.   

Of course since we are using Hypex design, we give up nothing in terms of sound quality.    I've engaged in true overkill design for both the active circuit design, the input buffer for the UcD stage and the Hypex units themselves.    The inputs are TRUE balanced inputs, using the THAT 1200 balanced line receivers, giving the input transformer-like noise rejection without the transformer distortion, size & cost.    There will be options for Hypex based HxR voltage regulators to power the active circuits, and options for LM4562 opamps (early prototypes have used OPA2134s & NE5534s).   

I have no idea of what the final retail price will be but I'm estimating around $1200 per speaker.    For some this may seem like a big price jump but you have to compare both the cost of the amplification & the cost of the loudspeaker.    I looked at some of the best low-priced options available for home theater and 2-channel.    For a comparison I started with the Outlaw monoblocks and speakers.  I don't have any experience with their speakers but I think they are representative of what a good quality direct to consumer business model can deliver in terms of both the loudspeakers, and the amplification.    Their bookshelf is $500-$550 each so the combined price is $850-$900 per speaker.     We are a going to be a couple hundred dollars more expensive per channel but deliver significantly better performance, and efficiency.   The loudspeaker transducers will have MUCH better distortion & output capabilities, yet occupy about the same space.   We should also easily have them beat on bandwidth on both sides, the midwoofer to 35Hz, the tweeter to 30K.    The comparison in headroom won't even be close, the EX-6.5 is a MUCH more capable transducer, equal to most 8" form-factor drivers rather than a 5.25" driver (which is probably a good unit from Seas).     Overall, we should offer a substantial improvement in performance for a very small delta in price and offer something that is responsibly built and designed for maximum energy efficiency.   





Voodoo Rufus

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #57 on: 28 Jul 2008, 09:11 pm »
So this means a complete shift from kit passive speakers to completed active speakers?  :cry:
Better sound or not, building the stuff is half the fun!

Kevin Haskins

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #58 on: 29 Jul 2008, 04:54 pm »
So this means a complete shift from kit passive speakers to completed active speakers?  :cry:
Better sound or not, building the stuff is half the fun!

Yes, I'm going to migrate away from kit speakers for most of the lineup.   I'll have a couple DIY designs released but I won't be selling a "kit" per se.   I will continue to sell the drivers on the web site and I'll have the designs done and some basic documentation.   The builder will have to buy the crossovers and assemble them.   Support will be limited to the listed documentation which is about what most of the "free" designs posted out on the web offer.     I may do a crossover board here and there that might be offered to the public also.   My focus will be on the completed designs.

I reserve the right to change my mind for special cases.  ;-)   

The bottom line is that I don't make money from speaker kits.  There are a number of sources out on the web giving away free designs and it is tough to compete with free.    I don't have the financial freedom to spend my time on things that don't in some way pay the bills.   It really is as simple as that.   

 





 





Voodoo Rufus

Re: New Loudspeaker -- Tycho Brahe
« Reply #59 on: 5 Aug 2008, 01:00 am »
Well, if subs pay the bills, go at it!

What about woofer widget, any progress?