[acd483]

what was the active speaker?

Linkwitz Orion.

Darren,

I'm looking to start building that or his Pluto speaker, though at this point I've only auditioned the Orion. They are truly stunning. And let me tell you guys, when you've got speakers that good, you'll want transparent electronics.

I find it interesting and encouraging that you and I have similar opinions and taste in hifi.

[doug s.]

not to worry - the only one you're short-changing is you.     from your first post:

"...My goal in digital is for the unit to be as transparent and distortion free as possible. The Benchmark DAC is rated as one of the most transparent components available, which is why it will be my next component purchase..."

welcome to the lemmings party - the same one you accuse others of belonging to!   

doug s.

Doug,
Sorry I ruined the party.

[acd483]

Once again, unless you think Benchmark and Mytek and Lavry are all falsifying their data, these DACs are audibly transparent as the distortion and noise levels are outside the realm of hearing ability.

You believe there are other intangibles that make these DACs sound different, but can't name them. You have just defined faith. I seek proof in this world, you are one of the faithful.

[martyo]

I've been following this thread for a week now. I am astounded that in 2007 someone believes you can tell the sound of electronics by the spec sheet, and particularly looking at distortion and noise levels to arrive at the conclusion that a piece of gear is transparent!       

[doug s.]

i think you need to listen before you buy.  data is only the starting point for what to consider listening to, imo.  you are the one defining faith, not me.  if you want proof about how something sounds, you won't find it on a piece of paper, you have to listen.   

doug s.

Once again, unless you think Benchmark and Mytek and Lavry are all falsifying their data, these DACs are audibly transparent as the distortion and noise levels are outside the realm of hearing ability.

You believe there are other intangibles that make these DACs sound different, but can't name them. You have just defined faith. I seek proof in this world, you are one of the faithful.

[doug s.]

why are you so astounded?  have you picked up a newspaper lately?  read news on the internet?  heard news on the radio?  look at what is going on in the world today, & tell me you really think humans are smart enough to know better...   

doug s.

I've been following this thread for a week now. I am astounded that in 2007 someone believes you can tell the sound of electronics by the spec sheet, and particularly looking at distortion and noise levels to arrive at the conclusion that a piece of gear is transparent!       

[Double Ugly]

I've been following this thread for a week now. I am astounded that in 2007 someone believes you can tell the sound of electronics by the spec sheet, and particularly looking at distortion and noise levels to arrive at the conclusion that a piece of gear is transparent!       

Eh, surprised though you may be, ol' acd isn't alone in his approach to attaining the ultimate in audio fidelity.  My guess is we'd probably find he's decent enough guy if we were afforded a face-to-face meeting.  He has issues with having to have the last word (to his detriment, I hasten to add), but I've seen nothing to suggest he isn't genuine in his strongly and loudly professed convictions. 

I'll even go a step further and say I think he believes he's doing us all a favor, that he's educating us, perhaps even saving us from ourselves.  He's yet to figure out that proselytizing in this tit-for-tat, back and forth manner is amazingly counterproductive, but none of us are without blind spots, especially when it comes to ourselves.

On a personal note, I'm just thrilled to see this thread is somewhere other than Audio Central! 

[martyo]

why are you so astounded?  have you picked up a newspaper lately?  read news on the internet?  heard news on the radio?  look at what is going on in the world today, & tell me you really think humans are smart enough to know better...   

That's another topic, there is plenty of good news and bright people around, not usually in the typical "news story" of a corporate run news source or a biased blog. Another topic................

I guess I meant HERE on Audio Circle, but thinking back to all the marketing used in many RMAF rooms just last week I shouldn't be astounded.

[miklorsmith]

I think distortion is an over-used and misunderstood term.  I sure don't understand it.  When an amplifier's manufacturer claims to have .000001% distortion, I can wrap my head around that - compare the analog waveform before and after amplification.  However, with a digital converter, what is being measured?  Can we look at a purely digital waveform?  Is it referring to only the analog circuitry?  If so, how is that done?  If we can somehow compare an incoming digital stream to an outgoing analog signal, I would like a Dummies explanation of how that would, or does, work.

If the digital/analog comparison is possible, is that what Benchmark is doing with its posted measurements?

I'm not saying low distortion defines good sound (I own a SET amp for pete's sake) but I also think the term, at least in this discussion, might not even mean what it says.

My caveman understanding of jitter is that it's created at many interfaces and that a DAC on its lonesome can't banish it.

I believe in marketing hyperbole.  You people act as if the companies are trying to steal the money.  NO, it's a willing buyer/willing seller market people, goods are received.  And, those goods are good!  My favorites are the wire people, they really have it down.  Have you seen some of the benefits possible?  I've been investing in wire for a while now and it's very rewarding.  Skin effect is the best, it makes me feel sexy.  And the best part is I know it's all true because they put it on their website which is designed to convince me to agree to their money for goods arrangement that they made possible and which benefits them by feeding their children.  If nothing else, it's a free market charity exercise, no?   

[Marbles]

  Skin effect is the best, it makes me feel sexy.   

I tried using IC's with a rubber dialectric, they got too sweaty, then I tried leather..my girlfriend really liked those!     but I had to go to cotton to really get my kink on.

[acd483]

The "sound" of tubes is easily measured (i.e. explained) and audio designers can alter the circuit topography of their transistor amps to imitate tube "sound". In other words, one can look at the data and get an idea of how the component will "sound". There are those who like the sound of distortion and those who don't want their electronics to introduce distortion as speaker choice is what most effects the sound you hear. Count me in the latter group.

I frequent these forums for news on open baffle speakers as they produce the sound I enjoy most. Occasionally a topic like this comes up and it's healthy debate. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just put out a counterpoint to the general mindset here. I don't know why it's considered counter-productive to debate!

I have nothing against anyone on this board, I know none of you personally, and only respond to what you write. I find the personal attacks generally a sign of a weak argument anyways. As usual, you guys just keep repeating the same thing, listen. I listen to speakers. I don't need to listen to electronics. At this point, I can't believe people still don't see the plain and simple science in audio engineering. There's just no magic going on guys.

As for you Double Ugly, as a moderator you'll always have the last word.

[Rob Babcock]

Actually I moderate the Digital Domain.   But I'll allow the debate to continue- I think it's been mostly civil and very entertaining.

[rajacat]

The "sound" of tubes is easily measured (i.e. explained) and audio designers can alter the circuit topography of their transistor amps to imitate tube "sound". In other words, one can look at the data and get an idea of how the component will "sound". There are those who like the sound of distortion and those who don't want their electronics to introduce distortion as speaker choice is what most effects the sound you hear. Count me in the latter group.

I frequent these forums for news on open baffle speakers as they produce the sound I enjoy most. Occasionally a topic like this comes up and it's healthy debate. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just put out a counterpoint to the general mindset here. I don't know why it's considered counter-productive to debate!

I have nothing against anyone on this board, I know none of you personally, and only respond to what you write. I find the personal attacks generally a sign of a weak argument anyways. As usual, you guys just keep repeating the same thing, listen. I listen to speakers. I don't need to listen to electronics. At this point, I can't believe people still don't see the plain and simple science in audio engineering. There's just no magic going on guys.

As for you Double Ugly, as a moderator you'll always have the last word.

Many audiophiles believe that tube gear creates a more holographic soundstage than SS gear. Since you are a strict believer in numbers how do you explain this phenomena? Could it be that the current testing gear is not able to measure 3D effects. I haven't seen any numbers that actually measure the holographic characteristics of various amp/preamps. To me a holographic presentation is very important in creating the illusion that you're listening to live music.

[Double Ugly]

As for you Double Ugly, as a moderator you'll always have the last word.

Only in Audio Central, and even then only when forced... or having been annoyed to the point of distraction.

[doug s.]

acd, the only reason i (or anyone else) is giving you a hard time, is not because you favor s/s over tubes.  (we'll give you a hard time about that on another thread!   )  you are being given a hard time because you are basing your opinions on specs only.  i would be the first to agree that specs are important, & i certainly use them as a guide to what i may wanna listen to.  but, even w/solid state gear, listening is important. 

now, if you really don't think so, that's ok.  no one's loss but yours.  but, seriously, if that's the case, save your money & do not buy a benchmark dac.  because, for half the price, or even less, you can have a modded art di/o that is at least as good.  if not better.

doug s.

The "sound" of tubes is easily measured (i.e. explained) and audio designers can alter the circuit topography of their transistor amps to imitate tube "sound". In other words, one can look at the data and get an idea of how the component will "sound". There are those who like the sound of distortion and those who don't want their electronics to introduce distortion as speaker choice is what most effects the sound you hear. Count me in the latter group.

I frequent these forums for news on open baffle speakers as they produce the sound I enjoy most. Occasionally a topic like this comes up and it's healthy debate. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just put out a counterpoint to the general mindset here. I don't know why it's considered counter-productive to debate!

I have nothing against anyone on this board, I know none of you personally, and only respond to what you write. I find the personal attacks generally a sign of a weak argument anyways. As usual, you guys just keep repeating the same thing, listen. I listen to speakers. I don't need to listen to electronics. At this point, I can't believe people still don't see the plain and simple science in audio engineering. There's just no magic going on guys.

As for you Double Ugly, as a moderator you'll always have the last word.

[acd483]

You guys aren't actually reading what I've written. An engineer/designer can alter the circuit topography of his amp to make it sound like a tube amp. If he can do that, it means there's no magic to tube design. It also means that the data can describe sound.

This is a worthwhile read by one of the greats:
http://www.audio-ideas.com/backiss/summer-1998/carver.html

But this is a tired debate. It would be very cool to have a test! A group of audio engineers would be given the specifications and test data for a number of amps. Each individual would describe the "sound" prior to listening and independent of one another. The amps would then be auditioned blindly and the engineers would match the specs to the amp. I, for one, would be very interested in the results. As you know, if they aren't correct more than 80% of the time, the claim that there are intangibles in sound reproduction that we cannot, as of yet, test would be proven true!

[martyo]

As a former "Carverhead" who's system except for tuner was all Carver and having one of those ss preamps with a choice of "classic tube sound" or "solid state", sorry, it's marketing. I had many years of enjoyment with my Carver gear, here is a perfect example of specs. My AVA Ultra 550, conservatively rated at 250 rms, is more powerful than my Carver TFM-75 rated at 750 rms. Bob Carver designed gear with a sound in mind, he has stated that many times, and the result was not transparency. IMHO, Carver is mid-fi, not hi-fi. The same preamp had his Holographic curcuit.   

[Marbles]

The debate:  acd says he can tell how an amp or DAC sounds by it's spec sheet.  Most of the rest of us say that it's a good starting point, but you still have to listen.

This will go on ad nauseum.

To acd...more power to you man, this is a skill I have not mastered, nor have very many.

peace out.

[doug s.]

what HE said!   

doug s.

The debate:  acd says he can tell how an amp or DAC sounds by it's spec sheet.  Most of the rest of us say that it's a good starting point, but you still have to listen.

This will go on ad nauseum.

To acd...more power to you man, this is a skill I have not mastered, nor have very many.

peace out.

[miklorsmith]

It's true that a designer can aim for more second order distortion characteristics out of solid state and that the vintage tube sound is going away in favor of faster, more nimble behavior.

I'm with Raja though - tubes give a 3D feel that no solid state I've heard can match.

As to whether the designer can replicate tubes with SS based on measurements, the most writing I've seen on this topic has been over the last few years with Srajan at 6moons.  He is a devout tubehead but has been searching for the SS solution that will allow him to give up valves.  A few have come close, like the Red Wine Signature amps, and the First Watt F3 and F4 but so far, no replacement.

Conspicuously silent - answers to my questions about measuring distortion from a digital converter.  acd - little help?  For the record, what is your scientific background that gives you greater perceptive ablility in reading graphs to determine sound?