[WGH]

Guys, let's not pound on acd483 anymore.

Actually I'm jealous of his ability to know how a particular component will sound without actually listening to it.  It's a very rare individual that possesses this ability.  Wish I did! 

A reviewer in the making...

My thoughts exactly.


Wayne

[darrenyeats]

so, i guess the folks who like the mytek better than the benchmark must really be falling for the placebo effect?

Actually, at the level of DACs or other digital sources the differences are so subtle that the placebo effect becomes very significant compared to those differences. I'm not sure all decent modern digital sources sound the same. But I do believe the differences are really subtle in comparison to loudspeakers.

Consider that the design of loudspeakers can vary greatly depending on how they are intended to interact with the room space (closed box, dipole or planar; satellite+sub or floorstander). There is more to loudspeakers than some notion of absolute transparency. How reflective is your room? Do you want a speaker that is going to deliver best performance in an average domestic setting or in an anechoic chamber, or in a dedicated listening room? Large room or small room?

I think the central point is this (and here I think I agree with acd483). None of these issues are relevant to the digital source stage. That is because the job of sources is to aim for transparency - and whilst a signal is still numerical or electrical there is such a notion of absolute transparency. So the question then becomes, if the aim is clear and consistent, and all sources are shooting for that one aim, eventually the differences will necessarily become small.

The argument is whether the current state of play is near enough to transparency or not. Once transparency is achieved (to the level of human hearing) there will be no more value in improving source sound quality. Agreed? To *prove* transparency hasn't been achieved takes a blind test - as transparency is approached the placebo effect will be very very strong compared to a proposed perceived difference.

I don't think the differences between speakers will ever narrow in the same sense (reasons already discussed).
Darren

[JohnR]

Not wanting to get into an argument or anything, but I find that it's easier to hear "through" a loudspeaker than it is to hear "through" electronics.

Hope that makes sense

[darrenyeats]

Not wanting to get into an argument or anything, but I find that it's easier to hear "through" a loudspeaker than it is to hear "through" electronics.

Hope that makes sense

Recently I heard an active speaker system that sounded incredible, a mile better than my own system. One track even sounded absolutely real (I have only experienced that sensation once before). Almost disturbing.

When I heard it my first thought was not that the digital player must be incredible to produce this sound. Indeed the owner swapped digital players and, relative to the sound of my system, it was still a mile ahead (it changed a few yards maybe - can't even be sure of that)!
Darren

[anubisgrau]

Not wanting to get into an argument or anything, but I find that it's easier to hear "through" a loudspeaker than it is to hear "through" electronics.

Hope that makes sense

Recently I heard an active speaker system that sounded incredible, a mile better than my own system. One track even sounded absolutely real (I have only experienced that sensation once before). Almost disturbing.

When I heard it my first thought was not that the digital player must be incredible to produce this sound. Indeed the owner swapped digital players and, relative to the sound of my system, it was still a mile ahead (it changed a few yards maybe - can't even be sure of that)!
Darren

what was the active speaker?

[acd483]

so, i guess the folks who like the mytek better than the benchmark must really be falling for the placebo effect?  they like the much spendier dac?  (even tho they are the same price?)  they like the smashing looks of the mytek?  (even tho it's butt-ugly?)     or, maybe they like the sound of the mytek better than the benchmark, even tho they sound the same!  cuz, obviously - if you don't know why there's an audible difference, it means there is no audible difference, even if they do sound different!   

It's not for me to answer to why some people like one brand over the other. Most likely it's because other people have told them the Mytek is better. So when they listen, they listen for the Mytek to be better. I find the amount of faith you've put in a few opinions really telling of the strength of your argument.

I'm telling you both manufacturers claim transparency, you're saying they're lying because a few guys like one over the other. WOW.

I expect the chattering horde to come on claiming those aren't the only determining factors in the way electronics produce sound. Well, tell me what does!

better yet, why don't you tell us?  cuz, that's the $64,000 question.  answer it & it will make you a rich man.  obviously, something is making folks prefer the mytek over the benchmark.   

Yawn. If I could measure every performance aspect of a piece of electronics to everyone's satisfaction, there still would be a huge group of people buying into audiophile voodoo, claiming the measurements aren't accurate, etc. Face the facts man, you want there to be intangibles in electronics because it's more romantic. You can hear what you want.

I chimed in on this conversation to save a guy from spending a bunch of money on an improvement that doesn't exist. What a jerk I must be!

In fact, I can't wait to get rid of the Constantine DAC.

why bother?  the constantine has distortion so low that it's impossible to hear; you won't be able to hear any improvemant at all, w/a dac that is three times the cost of your constantine - you will yust be throwing your money away!!!   specifications mean everything!!!  as long as a dac has distortion so low it's impossible to hear, it is as good as it gets - acd483 said so himself, & he knows everything!!!

doug s.

Actually, I must say, when I bought that DAC, I did what you do...based my purchases off the promises of others. The truth is, MHDT or any reviewer of their products has never published any performance tests on that DAC. That shows they're really behind this product. Have you noticed that the best DAC manufacturers publish every possible performance data to prove their claims? Oh, they must be making those all up. Ask Steve Nugent whether those claims are false, since he bases his mods off the Benchmark and stands behind his work, I've got an idea what his answer will be. And since you all believe him, it must be true!

[acd483]

Now, the Benchmark has a SNR of 116db while the Mytek 120db. The Total Harmonic Distortion of both is -107db. So, if these numbers point to transparency, and both manufacturers claim transparency, where is the audible difference?

And your point is? They can (and in fact, do) claim anything that they want. Does not make it the truth. Just marketing copy.

I expect the chattering horde to come on claiming those aren't the only determining factors in the way electronics produce sound. Well, tell me what does!

Why? You are clearly as close-minded as they come.

Good luck, bub........you are going to need it someday.

Pat

My point is their claims are backed up with hard evidence. Unless you're claiming they faked all the tests.

I'm very open minded to the truth. You got no argument man.

[acd483]

Guys, let's not pound on acd483 anymore.

Actually I'm jealous of his ability to know how a particular component will sound without actually listening to it.  It's a very rare individual that possesses this ability.  Wish I did! 

Actually I'm claiming to know how it doesn't sound!

[darrenyeats]

what was the active speaker?

Linkwitz Orion.

[doug s.]

Guys, let's not pound on acd483 anymore.

Actually I'm jealous of his ability to know how a particular component will sound without actually listening to it.  It's a very rare individual that possesses this ability.  Wish I did! 

Actually I'm claiming to know how it doesn't sound!

there's no difference.  you claim to know the sound of something w/o ever having experienced it. 

doug s.

[doug s.]

It's not for me to answer to why some people like one brand over the other. Most likely it's because other people have told them the Mytek is better. So when they listen, they listen for the Mytek to be better. I find the amount of faith you've put in a few opinions really telling of the strength of your argument.

if it's not for you to answer why some people like one brand over another, then why are you telling people to like one brand over another?     even when you have never heard either brand?   

do you really believe everyone behaves like lemmings?  people like the mytek better because "other people"  told them it was better?      in this case, the "opinions" were from recording engineers - people who make their living using the equipment.  they want what sounds best - to them - because their livelihood depends on it.  and, i am not arguing that the mytek sounds better than the benchmark - only that they sound different.  otherwise, folks wouldn't think one sounds better than the other.  as i stated before, i have never heard either.  i am perfectly happy & content living in the digital stone age w/my cheap transport & modded art di/o dac.  (which you should surely get, btw, instead of the benchmark, because it's at least as good, if not better, according to several people who have done direct comparison, including a/c members.  so, why waste your money on that overhyped benchmark?  why follow all the lemmings that say it's the bee's knees?  don't call me a jerk - i am yust trying to save you from spending a bunch of money on an improvement that doesn't exist!)   

I'm telling you both manufacturers claim transparency, you're saying they're lying because a few guys like one over the other. WOW.

huh???  show me a mfr that doesn't claim their product is the best for its cost/application, etc.  i guess they're all lying?  except for the one mfr that really is the best????  WOW!!!   

Yawn. If I could measure every performance aspect of a piece of electronics to everyone's satisfaction, there still would be a huge group of people buying into audiophile voodoo, claiming the measurements aren't accurate, etc. Face the facts man, you want there to be intangibles in electronics because it's more romantic. You can hear what you want.

i don't care whether or not there are intangibles in electronics measurements, but i do know there are intangibles.  i, and many others, have heard differences in gear where none should exist - on paper.  so, if differences exist, but have yet to be quantified, does it mean the science has yet to catch up w/the ability to measure the difference, or that everyone is hallucinating, & there really are no differences?  when people knew the earth was flat, were the heretics who thought the earth was round, yust being silly romantics?     face the facts, man, you yust wanna conwince yourself that you won't hear anything better than what you can afford!  and, you don't wanna have your bubble burst by actually listening!   

I chimed in on this conversation to save a guy from spending a bunch of money on an improvement that doesn't exist. What a jerk I must be!

re: you being a jerk, i couldn't have put it any better myself!     you are trying to recommend something that you have absolutely zero experience with.  you then condemn others below, for exactly what you do:  base purchases off the promises of others.  you are not only preaching ignorance as the way to make a decision, you are a hypocrite. 

Actually, I must say, when I bought that DAC, I did what you do...based my purchases off the promises of others. The truth is, MHDT or any reviewer of their products has never published any performance tests on that DAC. That shows they're really behind this product. Have you noticed that the best DAC manufacturers publish every possible performance data to prove their claims? Oh, they must be making those all up. Ask Steve Nugent whether those claims are false, since he bases his mods off the Benchmark and stands behind his work, I've got an idea what his answer will be. And since you all believe him, it must be true!

so...  you used to do "what i do"?  and, in wanting to replace your present dac with the benchmark dac, you are now doing something different?      cuz, you certainly aren't basing your purchases on what something might actually sound like!   

get back to me when you wake up out of your dream world. 

doug s.

[mr_bill]

......and to think I started all this mess with this topic...........and never really got the input I was looking for...........................oh well.

[miklorsmith]

Actually, the input was given intially though it has broken down significantly from there.  In my system, using different digital front ends shows very obvious differences - akin to preamp or amp changes.

[honesthoff]

which is why he also refuses to answer any comments i have made about the mytek - even tho i have read several comments from people who have heard both & preferred the mytek, & i have read of no one who prefers the benchmark, (siimilar story for the $1k lavry dac), acd483 has no comment.

I bought samplesj's (the earlier poster who prefers the Hagtech Chime in his system) Benchmark a while ago and have been enjoying it ever since.  I have a friend who is a recording engineer who owns the Mytek Stereo 96 and we did compare the two.  He took my Benchmark for a week, and I took his Mytek for a week, so not really a side-by-side comparison. He bought his Mytek on the recommendation of a friend, and had never heard the Benchmark before.  I bought the Benchmark after a brief listen, and because it was fairly priced. I had never heard the Mytek.
Ultimately neither of us could determine an audible difference between the two in our particular set-ups.  We are both in our forties, and both of us have some measured hearing loss. In the end he is happy with his Mytek, I am happy with my Benchmark, and that, for me at least, is the ultimate goal.

P.S. acd483 I would reconsider using the Benchmark as a preamp, we both agreed that it was pretty poor in that application, and was easily bested by $99.00 AMC AV81 pre-amp I use on my bedroom television

[mfsoa]

My totally transparent system is more transparent than your totally transparent system

[TomS]

My totally transparent system is more transparent than your totally transparent system

Hey, I saw right through that one... 

[doug s.]

thanks, hoff - this is useful info.  i have been wondering if i could find a reasonably priced dac that might offer significant improvements over what i presently own.  of course, i am basing my my opinions on the comments of others who have compared what i own with the benchmark, but i am ok with not hankering for one of these any more.   

oh, and acd483 - forget what hoff said about the preamp in the benchmark - i am sure he is mistaken, as the benchmark is totally transparent, so his $99 preamp cannot sound any better.   

doug s.

which is why he also refuses to answer any comments i have made about the mytek - even tho i have read several comments from people who have heard both & preferred the mytek, & i have read of no one who prefers the benchmark, (siimilar story for the $1k lavry dac), acd483 has no comment.

I bought samplesj's (the earlier poster who prefers the Hagtech Chime in his system) Benchmark a while ago and have been enjoying it ever since.  I have a friend who is a recording engineer who owns the Mytek Stereo 96 and we did compare the two.  He took my Benchmark for a week, and I took his Mytek for a week, so not really a side-by-side comparison. He bought his Mytek on the recommendation of a friend, and had never heard the Benchmark before.  I bought the Benchmark after a brief listen, and because it was fairly priced. I had never heard the Mytek.
Ultimately neither of us could determine an audible difference between the two in our particular set-ups.  We are both in our forties, and both of us have some measured hearing loss. In the end he is happy with his Mytek, I am happy with my Benchmark, and that, for me at least, is the ultimate goal.

P.S. acd483 I would reconsider using the Benchmark as a preamp, we both agreed that it was pretty poor in that application, and was easily bested by $99.00 AMC AV81 pre-amp I use on my bedroom television

[darrenyeats]

P.S. acd483 I would reconsider using the Benchmark as a preamp, we both agreed that it was pretty poor in that application, and was easily bested by $99.00 AMC AV81 pre-amp I use on my bedroom television

Personally my experience is that "no preamp" set ups sound good, and certainly no worse than with a preamp. I base my comments on my DAC's passive volume control (which I used a lot a few years back) and the digital volume control on the SB3 which I've started to use recently.

YMMV.
Darren

[acd483]

......and to think I started all this mess with this topic...........and never really got the input I was looking for...........................oh well.

Here's the best advice...save your money and enjoy the music.

[acd483]

Doug,
Sorry I ruined the party.