Promitheus Audio

Ronw · « **on:** 13 Oct 2007, 08:47 pm »

Why must the members who use this thread for information and enjoyment (most of us) be punished by locking the thread to Promitheus Audio TVC because of the idiocy of a few?
Ronw

tanchiro58 · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Oct 2007, 11:00 pm »

Quote from: Ronw on 13 Oct 2007, 08:47 pm

Why must the members who use this thread for information and enjoyment (most of us) be punished by locking the thread to Promitheus Audio TVC because of the idiocy of a few?
Ronw

I totally agree with Ronw. We do not have fun anymore to talk about Promitheus TVC and its tweak because of those people?

JohnR · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Oct 2007, 11:16 pm »

There's nothing preventing you from starting other threads (obviously).

JLM · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 Oct 2007, 12:55 am »

Frankly it should have been split into several threads a long time ago as it had become way too cumbersome. Each product should have had it's own thread.

guest1632 · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 Oct 2007, 09:50 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 14 Oct 2007, 12:55 am

Frankly it should have been split into several threads a long time ago as it had become way too cumbersome. Each product should have had it's own thread.

Hi, Well frankly, it really doesn't matter now. some of the players that made the old thread alive have been banned. However, now with a new generation of owners of the TVC, maybe they can come back in and infuse this new thread with some excitement. It's kinda fun to watch this hobby. For awhile there, the UCD amps were the cat's meow. The TVC was the cat's meow for quite some time. I'm looking forward to Nicholas' double C core TVC's. I've been told they are really great. If Nicholas is gonna continue here, he should get his own circle. I did suggest that to him a long time ago.

So, ... now we shall see what awaits in the near future. I sure hope it's good.

Ray Bronk

tanchiro58 · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 Oct 2007, 10:20 pm »

Quote

I'm looking forward to Nicholas' double C core TVC's. I've been told they are really great.

Ray Bronk,

I am waiting my Apollo preamp with double C-cores to come soon in a couple month. I will let everybody know about the new generation of the TVC Signature as Nicholas told me. Once again I am just one of Promitheus Audio's consumers and do have nothing to do with Nicholas. So I am in the same opinion like you since we just want to talk about new excited products from Promitheus Audio here in this forum only for fun. I also hope "no one coming back and infuse this new thread with some excitement again."

Tan

aod · « **Reply #6 on:** 8 Nov 2007, 03:20 am »

Well,
Nick made me a 5687 based preamp to match up with my TVC
The 5687's are definitely a microphonic tube so he did go to alot of effort to
help control it. I had to add Herbies Halo-9 tube dampers. and, really, the set up is good.

I am now tweaking the system. So, step 1 is the power cords. i will be using CryoPartsCryomax ACIII with Furutech ends.

Next up will be the power strip that feed tha speakers (I use active monitors)
Then, the horrifyingly long interconnects.

For thos not using the active buffer. You should consider doing so.
The prommi stuff is good. Once I have finished with the cable tweaking, I'll let you guys know my thoughts.
I am having difficulty smothening the top end of my system with the Canare interconnects.
My IC's are 7m and 3m. So, i cannot buy name brand cables. They will cost too much.
Suggestions appreciated.

Jag

regds

guest1632 · « **Reply #7 on:** 8 Nov 2007, 03:53 am »

Quote from: aod on 8 Nov 2007, 03:20 am

Well,
Nick made me a 5687 based preamp to match up with my TVC
The 5687's are definitely a microphonic tube so he did go to alot of effort to
help control it. I had to add Herbies Halo-9 tube dampers. and, really, the set up is good.

I am now tweaking the system. So, step 1 is the power cords. i will be using CryoPartsCryomax ACIII with Furutech ends.

Next up will be the power strip that feed tha speakers (I use active monitors)
Then, the horrifyingly long interconnects.

For thos not using the active buffer. You should consider doing so.
The prommi stuff is good. Once I have finished with the cable tweaking, I'll let you guys know my thoughts.
I am having difficulty smothening the top end of my system with the Canare interconnects.
My IC's are 7m and 3m. So, i cannot buy name brand cables. They will cost too much.
Suggestions appreciated.

Jag

regds

Hi Jag,

Suggest that you contact one of the cable companies to find out what the cost of making your cables. Otherwise, you'll just have to break in those Cannare cables.

Ray

marknoir · « **Reply #8 on:** 8 Nov 2007, 02:34 pm »

I guess I missed the untimely demise of TVC thread and don't know the reason why it was closed. I have a different question: why in my system TVC did not shine, to put it mildly? My system: Classe DR9 amp, 100k impedance, Hagerman Trumpet tubed phono (that was the reason I got TVC, to run it directly into the amp), Pioneer HHB800 CD drive with Curcio tubed DAC. My preamp of choice for years has been and still is MFA Luminescence (slightly moded and with better caps, no longer dark and gloomy, but rather open and punchy - russian military teflons in interstages, big MultyCaps as main couplers)

I ran Curcio, Trumpet and my TV into Promitheus and got the following results: tv, which directly into Classe amp sounded spectacular, completely died, sound resembled a cheap boom box; Trumpet, which is a zero feedback design, and sounded great thru MFA line stage (bettering MFA phono in all respects), also died, and sounded like a cheap receiver phono; Curcio DAC was OK, but only OK. What is so wrong with my system, that trying TVC was such a disaster? I though I could save some money, and gain clarity, but no... Back to actives...

guest1632 · « **Reply #9 on:** 8 Nov 2007, 02:42 pm »

Quote from: marknoir on 8 Nov 2007, 02:34 pm

I guess I missed the untimely demise of TVC thread and don't know the reason why it was closed. I have a different question: why in my system TVC did not shine, to put it mildly? My system: Classe DR9 amp, 100k impedance, Hagerman Trumpet tubed phono (that was the reason I got TVC, to run it directly into the amp), Pioneer HHB800 CD drive with Curcio tubed DAC. My preamp of choice for years has been and still is MFA Luminescence (slightly moded and with better caps, no longer dark and gloomy, but rather open and punchy - russian military teflons in interstages, big MultyCaps as main couplers)

I ran Curcio, Trumpet and my TV into Promitheus and got the following results: tv, which directly into Classe amp sounded spectacular, completely died, sound resembled a cheap boom box; Trumpet, which is a zero feedback design, and sounded great thru MFA line stage (bettering MFA phono in all respects), also died, and sounded like a cheap receiver phono; Curcio DAC was OK, but only OK. What is so wrong with my system, that trying TVC was such a disaster? I though I could save some money, and gain clarity, but no... Back to actives...

I don't know. I suggest leaving the TVC in there. The volume a couple of clicks down from the top. Leave it play without using your system for a couple of days. If you see no change, then sell it. What configuration of the TVC did you get?

Ray

marknoir · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Nov 2007, 01:00 am »

Thanks Roy

I bought it used, well burned in. I already sold it. I personally don't beleive in burning in transformers, especially very low impedance like these. But the question is still is: is my system somehow passive unfriendly, or does everybody else hears things differently?

M

*Scotty* · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Nov 2007, 01:47 am »

marknoir,For starters a transformer is always a transformer, they all have common characteristics and will measure similarly. Here is a link to a Stereophile review of the Sonic Euphoria PLC.
http://stereophile.com/solidpreamps/106sonic/index4.html
Performance is a quality of relative merit, a TVC may outperform some active preamps and not outperform others, it depends on what they are compared to. You may have a pretty good active preamp in the MFA Luminescence. The TVC type preamp will always exhibit hysteresis distortion and have non-linear behavior related to the load they are terminated with.
The Django TVC that a friend brought over to compare to my active preamp sounded good, but it fell short in dynamics,bass and treble extension,image scale and hear through transparency. That being said, the overall performance was good and probably better than a lot of mediocre active preamps of which there is no shortage of in the current marketplace. It was definitely better in every way than a simple passive preamp that has no impedance matching capability.
Scotty

marknoir · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Nov 2007, 02:15 am »

Thanks Scotty

Your description of Django (which is - or was - based on S&B TX102s) is extremely close to what I've heard from TVC in my system. Ironically, I use S&B TX103s as an MC step-up and they sound very good indeed. Too bad - I thought TVC will be answer to my quest.

PS Lumi is no slouch. Probably as good as any modern $3K - $5K active out there.

Thanks again, M

anubisgrau · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Nov 2007, 10:05 am »

there are systems where TVCs don't shine simply because they are not all and end all of the preamps.

good as it is, it's still that the decent active preamp can not be touched by a good stock (off-shelf) TVC. the only better TVCs i've heard were hand-made, DIY-ed models.

on forums like this most of time we are reading ravings of those who like them, but the truth is there are many TVCs sold due to simple fact that people don't like them. and they don't post.

i still keep one on my shelf for warm summer days when i don't wan't to heat my flat with valves, otherwise....

jonners · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Nov 2007, 11:03 am »

Quote from: marknoir on 8 Nov 2007, 02:34 pm

I ran Curcio, Trumpet and my TV into Promitheus and got the following results: tv, which directly into Classe amp sounded spectacular, completely died, sound resembled a cheap boom box; Trumpet, which is a zero feedback design, and sounded great thru MFA line stage (bettering MFA phono in all respects), also died, and sounded like a cheap receiver phono; Curcio DAC was OK, but only OK.

If the Promitheus sounded that bad I would suspect that there was a problem with it somewhere. Can you borrow another one to try out?
John

guest1632 · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Nov 2007, 01:22 pm »

Quote from: anubisgrau on 10 Nov 2007, 10:05 am

there are systems where TVCs don't shine simply because they are not all and end all of the preamps.

good as it is, it's still that the decent active preamp can not be touched by a good stock (off-shelf) TVC. the only better TVCs i've heard were hand-made, DIY-ed models.

on forums like this most of time we are reading ravings of those who like them, but the truth is there are many TVCs sold due to simple fact that people don't like them. and they don't post.

i still keep one on my shelf for warm summer days when i don't wan't to heat my flat with valves, otherwise....

Where and on what grounds do you base your last statement? That's quite a judgment call.

I do agree, that if the TVC sounded that bad, I'd either look around and see if he could borrow one, or do as I had suggested earlier, break it in. It takes about 400 hours or so. Give it a day or to on the system with the volume up to the top minus a click or two. If then after two days, it still sounds bad, then you need to be talking to Nicholas.

Ray

marknoir · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Nov 2007, 02:23 pm »

Thanks Ray

As I said before, I bought it used with a lot of hrs on it. And, as I also said before, I don't understand all the talk about "burning in" transformers. This discussion will most likely belong in a different circle altogether, but my experience does not support burning in approach. During my 35 ys in audio hobby, I have never heard any improvement with 400 hrs of use (!) There is definitely a normal break-in period, but 400 hrs? I have not heard any improvement on my TX103 MC step-ups (I have two) after burning-in recommended by Thorsten Loesch, nor do I agree with that Thorsten Loesch statement that MC signal is so small that it will never "magnetise the core" (!) Excuse me? Magnetised core will introduce residual megnetic fields in the transformer, which will absolutely degrade the sound. It is not supposed to be magnetised. Same goes for MC cartridges demagnetising, which is useless and unnessesary, and sometimes plain damging process (agree here with VanDen Hull).

So I beleive still, that either Promitheus TVC has personal dislike of my system (

)), or that it's reputation is somewhat hyped, by people who have not heard better. The link in one of previous posts on Stereophile's test of another transformer-based TVC showed it to be an extremely non-linear and unpredictable component, so the same is probably true about most, if not all TVCs. Otherwise. why would I see so many of them on used market now? On this I agree with post before yours. Having tried and used a lot of transformers as MC step-ups, I also find them to be not a cure-all. I beleive that a properly designed MC-capable phono stage will outperform a transformer/MM phono combo, for the same flaws I pointed out in TVC. However, with MC transformers these flaws are drastically reduced. Before I got my TVC unit, I heard a demo of it here in Brooklyn, where it was bettered both by Mapletree line stage and a home-made tube preamp. But I decided to give it a shot anyway. Well, I'm back to actives! Any shoot-outs with my preamp are welcome - within reasonable distance, of course! I still have not given up completely on passives completely.

Thanks for all replies, I aplogise if I diverted this thread sideways, pls continue, I'm checking out.

denjo · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Nov 2007, 02:49 pm »

Marknoir
There is another explanation why you feel the TVC did not work out for you, just as it almost did not work out for me! I believe that synergy is the key, more so with a TVC. First, you need a matching amplifier (impedance matching, gain). Second, an excellent digital source. Third, matching cables. Fourth, suitable speakers and fifth, proper power conditioning and last but not least, room treatments. Your amplifier must be powerful enough to bring the best out of the TVC. As a matter of interest, I came from active pres and would not trade my TVCs for anything. They are transparent and pure and natural sounding and comes closer to the truth than reality itself. I am glad that you have not given up on passives altogether and hope that sometime in the future you will have the opportunity to match your TVC with matching gear, bringing the best of a TVC!

Best Regards
Dennis

Ps, I have not seen many ads for sale of a Bent Audio TVC!! And, if they do appear, the TVC usually goes very quickly! I wonder why!

marknoir · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Nov 2007, 03:12 pm »

To Denjo

Everything you point out can be applied to ANY system - matching cables, power conditioning, room treatment etc. My amps are pretty standard with 100K impedance (50K when run in parallel), and with 1200 watts I beleive I have no shortage of power. Infinity 4.5 ribbon hybrids are still some of the most transparent and accurate speakers ever produced. About digital sourcing vs analog - again, the usual argument. Apparently, according to Stereophile review, Sonic Euphoria will work well only with amps of about 10K input. Sorry, aim't got that! And what effect power conditioning would have on a PASSIVE line stage? I was comparing TVC with EVERYTHING ELSE BEING EQUAL. Your enthusiasm is appreciated, but you speak with no knowledge here.

And what good is a volume control if you can use it with good results at only a certain position? Apparently, two to three clicks below maximum?

Audiogon recently was full of Promitheus used units. Sure, they sell, because everyone and his grandma wants to try one, and without a long wait, just like me.

GHM · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Nov 2007, 03:15 pm »

I get a good laugh from the blanket statements about audio gear in general. Just because something doesn't work for one, they the unfortunate few... assume it to be a bad product or an inferior one. Some times it's just not a good match. That is just the way it is. Opinions are like @ssholes everybody has one. There's not a piece of equipment made by man where a flaw cannot be found by someone.Not here to defend..but too each his own.

Good listening

Promitheus Audio

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