Damn, love it when I find something wrong BeachBlanket Audio

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 1966 times.

John Casler

I like to think with all my years of experience and "education???" in audio, I know most of what needs to be known to at least get 85% of the best sound out of my (and my clients) system(s).

Damn if I don't love it when I find something new (that I should have seen as obvious all along) that I have ignored for lack of awarness.

Actually, I have been thinking about this for a long time and a few of you might breeze through the VMPS forum where I slather a plethora of various tweaks that vary from the simple, to the "Chuckie" specials (just joking Chuck)

In the last several months much has been posted of "the ROOM" and how it affects the sounds.

Recently someone posted to the Van Alstine forum a question to Frank about his anechoic comments.  I think many fail to realize just how "damaging" any room affect has on the sound and how we perceive it.

And this is how even "I", who try to see all the possiblilities, missed this one.

For those who don't know, I have a very basic Rotel CD/Bryston Preamp/CineNova Amp/ into VMPS RM40 speakers.

Simple, clean, powerful, dynamic and accurate, ....if set up correctly and in a room that is taken out of the equation in the mids and highs as much as possible.

Now what I found will probably affect only a few of your directly, but has larger tweak type implications to all but the most acoustically sound proofed.

Ready?

How many of you have a coffee table, ottoman, or anything sitting in front of you (between you and your speakers?  Sure it is too low to cause any problems right??? :evil:

WRONG!  :nono:

I have a 400# granite table that has all my remotes and also acts as a foot rest/ottoman.

It is just like a coffee table or whatever and for the last several months, in the back of my mind I have wondered if the sound reflects off the table on its way to me, in any deleterios way. :?:

Have I been happy with my system?  Damn straight.  It has great everything and each time I hear an improvement I think it must be just about to its limit since it is hard to imagine things getting much better.

But...

In comes Norah Jones.  I could never see why everyone like this CD so much.  If played loud (say 85-90 db) it sounds like she is over miked and while it is a good CD, it is not magical in its presention (or should I say "was not") :oops:

Now I have (again see the VMPS forum) developed some significant tweaks to reduce things like cabinet defraction (lapels) and ceiling bounce (Hood and "Sonic Director") and really didn't think there was too much more I could do in what was considered the "major" Sound Control Tweaks.  I have lots of Acoustic Panels hanging on the wall and covering many reflective surfaces, and crevices.

Well I was wrong :evil:   And now I'm happy :mrgreen:

Cause the improvement is not just noticable but "very noticable"

What did I do?  I simply covered my granite table with a beach towel :|

Yep that was it.  And wow what a difference.

The biggest differences?

1) Norah Jones' voice now sounds sweet and silky, even on the leading edge of what I thought was the over miked peaks, but instead were just very strong, almost direct, reflections beamed at me at nearly the same time as the real original signal, blurring and fouling the sound.

2) Soundstage depth.  OK, I wasn't expecting this to happen so it was a "VERY" pleasant surprise.  As I sat listening to Nora, after this tweak, the "realness" of her drummer, playing behind her on stage became startlingly real!!!!  I hope if you try this you hear a similar improvement, since my 3-D depth has always been one of my systems strong points, this was a sweet payoff for simply grabbing a beach towel out of the closet.

3) Blackness, imaging and texture.  These just keep getting better.  They got better when I switched to the Bryston PreAmp, when I added the lapels, and now as my living room looks like Frankie and Annette should be sitting on my table, they are even better.

So if you don't have a table between you and the speakers does this mean you don't need this info?

Not quite.  Check this out.  I don't know how bad your floor bounce is, but you might want to try a simple "floor bounce blocker" to see.

I thought about this after looking at my towel draped table.  The towel hangs over the edges of the table and basically blocks "all" floor bounce.  Of course it doesn't block bass which rolls right through and under it.

If you have a couple big fluffy towels and something as simple as two large cardboard boxes, try placing them at various distances directly between you and each speaker and listen for any differences.

While a carpeted floor will generally absorb some of the bounce, it won't do what a direct "Floor Bounce Barricade" (sounds like a good name) will do.

Just get the "fluffiest" two towels and at least 18" high cardboard boxes and set them between you and the point (closer to you) where the main floor bounce would be.

If you have a doubt where that is, just put a mirror on the floor and move it around until you can see the reflection of your speaker in the mirror when your sitting in the sweet spot.  Set the box between you and the mirror so that it blocks your view of the "image bounced" by the mirror.

So, I think that even if you don't have the coffee table like I did, this tweak could offer an interesting sonic improvement should you have floor bounce that you don't know about or aren't aware of, that is affecting your sonic purity.

Once again, this is a tweak that is only for serious listening and can easily go in the closet (linen closet) when not in use.  I doubt if the wife of GF will want towels and boxes all over the place.

Hope it works as well for you as it did for me.

I love it when I find things wrong :rock:

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 11482
  • Without music, life would be a mistake.
Damn, love it when I find something wrong BeachBlanket Audio
« Reply #1 on: 7 Sep 2003, 11:33 pm »
Hey, congrats on the improvement.  Even better would be something thicker, like a comforter or other thick blanket.  Better yet, move the coffee table and have nothing between you and the speakers :-)

But, I have to disagree w/you on Norah - she is overmiked (recorded to hot), listen to the CD via a good pair of headphones and you will hear it plain as day.  Put on some really well recorded female vocals (Eva Cassidy CD's spring to mind) and you will see how much better things "could" have been done w/Norah.

Tbadder1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 284
DAMN RIGHT BROTHER!
« Reply #2 on: 7 Sep 2003, 11:57 pm »
I found out the exact same thing, but thought I might be a lunatic.  When I excercise in my listening area I have to remove the coffee table completely.  Well, one day it just struck me when I was listening to my favorite Marley about ten times in a row.  Sure enough, no coffee table, better imaging left to right, stronger presence up and down, slightly tighter bass.  Same thing happened with my curtains.  In summer they're canvas--uck!  In winter they're velvet--awesome!  Now they're velvet year round!!  And now I know what to buy at rummage sales, all those Elvis velvet paintings!  My room will sound as cool as it looks, finally!

Dan

mgalusha

Damn, love it when I find something wrong BeachBlanket Audio
« Reply #3 on: 8 Sep 2003, 12:58 am »
I am fortunate that there is no table (or anything else) between my listening spot and the speakers but I experieced a very similar effect.

Several feet behind and nearly in the middle of the speakers my wife has a nice plant. I never gave it much thought as it was small and didn't appear to cause any problems with the sound... One week, over the course of several days I noticed I was really disliking the sound of my system. I hadn't made any changes and was at a loss as to why it was so bad. I finally noticed that she had taken out the plant and replaced it with vase full of glass flowers.

I put the vase in the dining room and the sound was transformed. It certainly drove home just how much the room (and it's contents) affect things. Happily she was agreeable to putting a real plant back in place. :)

Bosh

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 65
Damn, love it when I find something wrong BeachBlanket Audio
« Reply #4 on: 8 Sep 2003, 04:39 pm »
Quote from: Tyson


"But, I have to disagree w/you on Norah - she is overmiked (recorded to hot)."

Agree.  In fact if you're going to tweak a room to make THAT recording sound right, or at least better, well...that's like moving the lake to make your boat go in the right direction  :? .

The evil of coffee tables in the listening environment is pretty well established, the continued hype of the Jones record on the basis of sound quality remains a mystery.

Carlman

Damn, love it when I find something wrong BeachBlanket Audio
« Reply #5 on: 8 Sep 2003, 04:54 pm »
Some of Norah's softer songs are good to listen to but, I'm usually annoyed by that album because of the hot mic.

However, about coffee tables... would 2 smaller coffee tables provide a better or worse effect on imaging or SQ?  The 2 smaller ones would be separated and positioned at different angles.  Whatsay 2x2 foot squares.

I wanted to do 2 fabric cubes but, they don't work well for drinks.  I found a couple of little tables that I'd like to use instead.  

I have 1 2.5x4.5 foot rectangular coffee table now and while I can hear a difference without it, it's not huge.... not like proper speaker placement yields.

Bosh

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 65
Coffee tables
« Reply #6 on: 8 Sep 2003, 08:08 pm »
You might want to check out this link.  The bit about coffee tables is seven or eight paragraphs down:

http://www.revolutionhometheater.com/howto/bobhodas0803/index.html

John Casler

Damn, love it when I find something wrong BeachBlanket Audio
« Reply #7 on: 8 Sep 2003, 09:18 pm »
Thanks all for the comments:

Norah Jones:  I guess what I meant to say was that "in comparison" to the way it sounded without the treatment, she sounded (and still sounds) much more pure and silky.  Before the treament, her voice during those over miked peaks, was almost painful at anything over 85db.

The treament itself:  Since I have the RM40s this treament really made a difference.  Since they have such limited dispersion I had always kept the possibliity of this first order reflection, in the back of my mind thinking it was probably too "minor" to make a difference.

Additionally, the granite table, while narrow (maybe 10") was wide and set up a direct reflection from each speaker.  Those with an ottoman or a rather narrow table might have other reflections to worry about like side reflections and such.

I think the end result was two fold.  

1) gone are the first order "direct" reflections from the top of the granite table and

2) gone are any floor bounced reflections since the table effectively "blocks" them.

The unexpected result was the incredible increase in 3-D depth and this too is what made the Norah Jones CD come to life.  It really did suck at any reasonable volume before.  The reality of the drum kit behind her became so much better.

PS...the Piano image still sucked and it too is over miked.

Application to other speakers and rooms:

Although one might think that since they have carpet they have no floor bounce, or that nothing between them and the two speakers is best, I would suggest that it could be interesting to try the cardboard boxes and fluffy beach towel experiment and see if it helps.

In any event, it was a huge improvement compared to adding new cables and such.

I have a BPT Clean Power Center (w/Bybees, Silver wiring and High Current Noise Filter) on the way, and I only hope that it is possible that this could offer the same type of improvement.

Sa-dono

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 845
Damn, love it when I find something wrong BeachBlanket Audio
« Reply #8 on: 9 Sep 2003, 03:25 am »
Good to see you finally treated that table. With all of the tweaks you've been doing, I figured it was just a matter of time :D

Quote from: John Casler

I have a BPT Clean Power Center (w/Bybees, Silver wiring and High Current Noise Filter) on the way, and I only hope that it is possible that this could offer the same type of improvement.


Which model are you getting?

John Casler

Damn, love it when I find something wrong BeachBlanket Audio
« Reply #9 on: 9 Sep 2003, 03:49 am »
Quote
Good to see you finally treated that table. With all of the tweaks you've been doing, I figured it was just a matter of time  


Didn't you know that "friends don't let friends, listen to their system with granite tables causing glare and 1st order reflections"? :nono:



Quote
Which model are you getting?


It is "not" one with the Balanced Transformer, it is a CPC or Clean Power Center.

I was just going to get an extra long Power Cord so I didn't have to use one of those old strips and next thing I know I have a "silver wired, Clean Power Isolated, Bybee'd", Clean Power Center.

I'm not sure about how I feel about the Bybee's in the chain after the source, but I am open to them in the Power Chain as a clean power source.

Should be interesting and it was rather inexpensive.  And Chris at BPT is set up like VMPS in that you can add stuff from a menu of upgrades and options.

Just go to BPT and look for CPC.

I'll report on my impressions in the "commercial" dealer posting forum.

Hope they're better than the battery powered cables, which "are" great, but I don't hear a lot of difference over my regular "Black Beauty cables" which are also great.

Sa-dono

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 845
Damn, love it when I find something wrong BeachBlanket Audio
« Reply #10 on: 9 Sep 2003, 04:09 am »
Quote from: John Casler

Didn't you know that "friends don't let friends, listen to their system with granite tables causing glare and 1st order reflections"? :nono:


Yes..I guess my mistake...I assumed..which I warn others about doing :oops: Next time I'll just blurt out, "what are you smoking John?!?!?!" :lol: Now I just need to convince you to buy all those other components :mrgreen: I have a plan in mind regarding DACs, that I may have to implement for the group.. Well I'm glad you finally did treat that table. I'm sure things are just sounding better and better :D