[Freo-1]

Found this link while surfing, and thought it would be a good topic for discussion (assuming we keep it respectful). Post your views, and let's see what we can learn.

http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm?/paper07.htm&intro

For me, while I enjoy my multi-channel rig for movies and some music, the two channel source is always best sevrevd with the firebottles.

[Double Ugly]

Not nearly as over the top as I'd have expected from a tube amp manufacturer. 

First off, I believe it's a lot more complex than SS vs. tube.  What one hears from any system is the sum total of everything in and associated with said system, from the room (size, treatments, etc.) to the quality of the power coming into the room.

That said, and assuming all things are equal (quality tube vs. quality SS), I believe the speakers are the most important aspect of the equation.  To that end, I've not heard a pure SS amp that offers the realism - the organic presence - provided in spades by their tube and hybrid counterparts when listened to via truly neutral transducers. 

That's not to say I've never heard a SS amp perform well; I have.  But many of the speakers with which they were paired needed the SS amp to pull them out of the darkness, as it were.  Speakers that aren't overly warm or closed-in sounding don't need an amp's assistance to sound the way they (IMO) should.

Obviously YMMV, and as is the case with so much associated with this hobby, there is no right or wrong preference IMHO.

That said, if someone knows of an earthly-priced SS amp that'll displace the Butler Monads I'm currently using, I'd be most appreciative if you'd kindly tell me all about it. 

[Freo-1]

Not nearly as over the top as I'd have expected from a tube amp manufacturer. 

Yes, that's what I thought as well. It's a well written exchange of ideas.

As far as solid state goes, one of the best setups I've heard is using the firewire out from a source player input to a Sony DA 9000 ES using SACD input, (through an anti jitter ciricut), which is sent directly to the output section, where it is converted to an analog output to the speaker (Sacrilege, it may sound, but true!). This was demostrated using Wilson speakers, and was very well received at the show.

It makes me wonder why this topology has not been exploited more. The (potential) technical advantages (less electronics required, direct digital stream fed to the output) would seem worth exploiting.

[Double Ugly]

The (potential) technical advantages (less electronics required, direct digital stream fed to the output) would seem worth exploiting.

I agree. 

The connection chain you described is odd IME (understatement, no? ), but I'd love to have been there to hear it!

I'm toying with the idea of buying a dedicated iMac for use in my room.  It'd replace the first two pieces of the far-removed computer (HDD --> wireless router) --> modified Transporter --> amps --> speaker set-up I have now.  I'd love to be directly wired at all points, but the computer noise potential worries me. 

Even so, the myriad of interesting experiments and comparisons via different types of connectors and outputs I could perform intrigues me greatly!

[Steve Eddy]

Found this link while surfing, and thought it would be a good topic for discussion (assuming we keep it respectful). Post your views, and let's see what we can learn.

The problem with the piece as I see it is that neither of the two reasons he gives for tubes sounding better than transistors (that transistors can't be operated without feedback and that transistor circuits require more capacitors in the signal path) are true.

se

[Double Ugly]

The problem with the piece as I see it is that neither of the two reasons he gives for tubes sounding better than transistors (that transistors can't be operated without feedback and that transistor circuits require more capacitors in the signal path) are true.

I knew the first, wasn't sure about the latter.

Still a surprisingly genteel piece considering his vocation, though I suppose the fact that he struck out swinging is equally surprising. 

[BrianM]

How many people here are believers in hybrids (a little of both)?

[Double Ugly]

How many people here are believers in hybrids (a little of both)?

I'm not sure what you mean by believing in them, but my Butler Audio Monads are among the best 2 or 3 amplifiers I've ever heard, irrespective of price.

[WEEZ]

...click on 'articles' and scroll down to part 2 in Freo's link.

WEEZ

[Steve Eddy]

...click on 'articles' and scroll down to part 2 in Freo's link.

More mythology:

In a tube, clipping is completely different.  Since a tube works by passing electrons from a cathode through a charged screen to a plate by way of different electrical potentials, there is no such thing as "clipping" as we've come to know it through this discussion.

This is complete nonsense.

Fundamentally a transistor works no differently than a tube. You can just as well say that a transistor works by passing electrons from an emitter/source through a charged base/gate to a collector/drain by way of different electrical potentials.

The tube never shuts off, and never puts DC on the voice coil.  It never creates an unnatural flat line at the top of musical peaks.  What happens is more like a bucket (the plate) being filled with water (electrons).  When the plate is saturated there is no longer a potential difference - so, no more electrons are accepted on the plate until there is room made on the plate by the dissipation of those electrons.  Instead of clipping, a form of compression occurs as the difference between the continuous power and peak power are reduced.

Still more mythology. A transistor works no differently.

The differences between the even order harmonic distortion tubes generate and odd order harmonic distortion that solid state amplifiers generate are profound.

And it just keeps coming.

A single-ended tube circuit will produce predominantly even order harmonics. A single-ended transistor circuit will also produce predominantly even order harmonics.

A push-pull transistor circuit will produce predominantly odd order harmonics. A push-pull tube circuit will also produce predominantly odd order harmonics.

se

[TONEPUB]

The Monad looks very interesting.

Just curious, does it use the 300B as a driver for a solid state output stage?
That sound very cool.

How do they claim the 300B NEVER wears out?  I know that the WE 300B's are
supposed to go 40 thousand hours, so thats pretty close.

I want to get one of these for review.  It sounds really interesting.

[Double Ugly]

The Monad looks very interesting.

Just curious, does it use the 300B as a driver for a solid state output stage?
That sound very cool.

How do they claim the 300B NEVER wears out?  I know that the WE 300B's are
supposed to go 40 thousand hours, so thats pretty close.

I want to get one of these for review.  It sounds really interesting.

They're monoblocks, so it's best to get two.    (sorry, couldn't resist )

I could offer some (barely) educated guesses, Jeff, but I'll leave the guesswork to those better equipped and simply offer a link.

Butler Audio Monad Monoblocks

I do very much like mine -

[Steve Eddy]

The Monad looks very interesting.

Yes, it does. Just too bad they had to call it the Monad. Makes it a bit difficult or any male who went through junior high school to take it seriously.

se

[Daygloworange]

...click on 'articles' and scroll down to part 2 in Freo's link.

More mythology:

In a tube, clipping is completely different.  Since a tube works by passing electrons from a cathode through a charged screen to a plate by way of different electrical potentials, there is no such thing as "clipping" as we've come to know it through this discussion.

This is complete nonsense.

Fundamentally a transistor works no differently than a tube. You can just as well say that a transistor works by passing electrons from an emitter/source through a charged base/gate to a collector/drain by way of different electrical potentials.

The tube never shuts off, and never puts DC on the voice coil.  It never creates an unnatural flat line at the top of musical peaks.  What happens is more like a bucket (the plate) being filled with water (electrons).  When the plate is saturated there is no longer a potential difference - so, no more electrons are accepted on the plate until there is room made on the plate by the dissipation of those electrons.  Instead of clipping, a form of compression occurs as the difference between the continuous power and peak power are reduced.

Still more mythology. A transistor works no differently.

The differences between the even order harmonic distortion tubes generate and odd order harmonic distortion that solid state amplifiers generate are profound.

And it just keeps coming.

A single-ended tube circuit will produce predominantly even order harmonics. A single-ended transistor circuit will also produce predominantly even order harmonics.

A push-pull transistor circuit will produce predominantly odd order harmonics. A push-pull tube circuit will also produce predominantly odd order harmonics.

se

Holy harmonics Batman!  

I've always heard that solid state produced odd order harmonics, and tube even order harmonics.

Does this mean that it was always an oversimplification, or misleading representation of tubes vs solid state?  

Cheers

[Steve Eddy]

They're monoblocks, so it's best to get two.    (sorry, couldn't resist )

Nor can I resist saying what a nice pair of Monads you've got there.

se

[Steve Eddy]

Holy harmonics Batman!   

I've always heard that solid state produced odd order harmonics, and tube even order harmonics.

Does this mean that it was always an oversimplification, or misleading representation of tubes vs solid state?

For the most part, yes.

While people use the phrase "tubes vs solid state" if they're not just making stuff up, they're comparing apples to oranges. They'll compare a typical tube amp to a typical solid state amp which will typically be based on vastly different topologies and then make sweeping proclamations (and damnations) about the devices themselves.

It's as nonsensical as comparing a single-ended tube amp to a push-pull tube amp and proclaiming that tubes suck.

se

[Double Ugly]

They're monoblocks, so it's best to get two.    (sorry, couldn't resist )

Nor can I resist saying what a nice pair of Monads you've got there.

se

Why, thank you sir! 

[Freo-1]

Here is another couple of links to chew on:

http://www.milbert.com/TVTFC.bdc
http://milbert.com/tstxt.htm

While I agree that comparing topologies is "apples to oranges" , the resultant sound is "apples to apples", and left for each of us to discern what we like and do not like. aa 

[Daygloworange]

That's very eye opening. As someone who doesn't have a lot of knowledge or understanding of electrical engineering, I often have to rely on so called common knowledge as a means to reconcile things in my mind.

However, coming from a musician and recording background and working with analog recorders, digital recorders, digital samplers, analog synthesizers/wavegenerators I've been exposed to lots as pertains to manipulating waveforms.

An example would be taking sine waves in synthesizers and manuipulating them, using square wave generators, saw tooth generators, triangle wave generators etc......with proper filtering and Eq, you can actually make very musical sounds with them.

So the while solid state thing not being musical never squared with me.

Cheers

[Freo-1]

The (potential) technical advantages (less electronics required, direct digital stream fed to the output) would seem worth exploiting.

I agree. 

The connection chain you described is odd IME (understatement, no? ), but I'd love to have been there to hear it!

I'm toying with the idea of buying a dedicated iMac for use in my room.  It'd replace the first two pieces of the far-removed computer (HDD --> wireless router) --> modified Transporter --> amps --> speaker set-up I have now.  I'd love to be directly wired at all points, but the computer noise potential worries me. 

Even so, the myriad of interesting experiments and comparisons via different types of connectors and outputs I could perform intrigues me greatly!

Could not agree more!

The connection chain is odd, BUT, sounds excellent!  One could even go as far to say that sound provided by that topology is somewhat different from a standard solid state setup. Firewire is an potentially excellent source to send music (it has sufficient bandwidth to send  SACD multi channel real time, how cool is that!)

The computer noise is an issue. Maybe a forward thinking audiophile could develop a server where the output is sufficiently isolated so that noise is not a big issue. Hmmmmm....   What do you reckon??