[analog97]

This month's  Stereophile has a review of the $1,400 Moon phono pre-amp.  The picture shows it features a special toroidal transformer in the power supply.  Well, it looks exactly like the Digi-key transformer specified by JH for his Bugle.  Anybody catch this?  Seems to me they are the same and Moon just put a decal on the transformer.  I just don't like this.  The only reason I caught this is because I just got JH's Bugle power supply kit.  I am attempting to build a complete AC Bugle in a chassis like the ones I've seen on this site.  I would bet big bucks that JH's Bugle/AC supply would be at least the equal of this "Class B" Stereophile component.  That said and likely true, where does that place my favorite component (Cornet2) on the Stereophile list?  Yeah...sorry..I guess this qualifies as a rant.

[art]

Down in Texas, we call it something else.

Hey.....since we use the same transformer in some of our products, we need to put a special decal on ours. Thanks for the tip.

Joking, of course.

Pat

[poseidonsvoice]

Yeah...sorry..I guess this qualifies as a rant.

Rant away, you have your rights. But the more you DIY, the more you'll find that many of the parts high end manufacturers use, are just off the shelf. The more expensive they are, the more likely that their products are being controlled by their marketing department, hence the special decal, and of course special trademarks. That transformer you describe is a Talema transformer and most of them are priced between $10 to $30 from Digikey. Even less when you buy in quantity.

The talent though is not in parts procurement, its in the development, execution and of course, design.

And as for the The Cornet 2, it's such a special product that it doesn't need the endorsements from anybody but the owner 

Of course the $1400 Moon phono preamp has probably $50 in parts and another $100 for the enclosure  . Its just how the high end works. And that transformer is about 10VA, not expensive at all. And what does "Ultra Low Noise" really mean? Ultra Low compared to what objective number?  Think about it.

That being said, their equipment sure does look cool. No idea how it sounds though.

And Pat...Love your website, very, very humorous to say the least. I bookmarked it right away.

Best,
Anand.

[hagtech]

I had thought to make a decal for that transformer myself, but never got around to it.  It's a nice location for branding.  You'll see decals or special labelling on plenty of things inside a hi-fi chassis.  Capacitors are most often relabeled.  I see decals on volume controls, shields, potted anything, circuit boards, etc.  Now that you know this practice exists, you will spot it much more often. 

At HAGTECH, we often strip the original label off of the Hammond transformers.  It looks nicer that way, especially the 370BX on top.

jh

[TONEPUB]

As someone who has owned Moon Products and Hagerman Products, I don't understand
the rant.

Jim's stuff is great, no question. 

If you are going to build his kit, you are eliminating the labor to build
the moon, the cost of the enclosure that Moon uses, the building,
receptionist, sales staff, warranty department and yes the marketing.

That's what's great about DIY!  If you want to build it yourself for 200 bucks
you can.

If you just want a nice little box to plug in and go, you can do that too.

No disrespect to either company.  They both offer great gear.  It's just
a different approach.

[poseidonsvoice]

Actually, I don't get ticked off when I see a $1400 product with about $200 worth of parts and labor in it. I understand business is business, and we all need to eat, so if the product performs as advertised why not. What I get ticked off by is some of the off the wall comments that have little engineering credibility and that's where I see the marketing department strolling in. Ticked off or not, I respect the products from both companies even though I'm a lot more familiar with Jim's stuff and have confidence in his design prowess.

FWIW, there are companies out there that don't have fancy marketing terms that do well. Snake oil gets to you after a while and that's what we need to limit...the spread of misinformation (i.e. Ultra Low Noise).

Best,
Anand.

[art]

Dirty little secret........retails prices are usually around 10X of parts cost. Smaller companies may be able to work at a lower ratio, but don't forget to take into account that we buy our parts in smaller quantities.

But that is no excuse for disinformation. That transformer does not have an electrostatic shield, and therefore, in my book, is not low noise. Toroids and electrostatic shields are subject best discussed in some other venue, other than JH's circle.

(Remember.......we use the exact same part. So, no rant against its merits.)

Pat

[analog97]

My original post (rant, if you will) simply had to do with the observation that a retail, high-end Hi-Fi product uses the same transforrmer that was specified by JH.  The obvious "low-noise" , etc labeling on the decal screamed of HYPE, as pointed out by Anand.  To my way of thinking, that is as bad as my attempting to market my JH-Bugle/Power Supply project in Stereophile as "The Doctor's Phono" because I twisted my RCA leads in some special way or some crap like that.  Actually, looking deeper, one will see my respect and appreciation for JH's product line.  The VALUE that one gets from the Cornet2 build, e.g. must be damn near priceless, relative to the $1,400 retail product alluded to.  Hey, I'm just a novice builder, having done 7 or so Hag projects and having learned a lot in the process.  An accurate summary of this thread is "how does one market the truth?"  That's Hagltech's dilemma.  How do you say "hey, I got a $999 all-tube phono pre-amp with all kinds of gain and loading that kicks the snarlies off everything anywhere near that price?".  Yes, sir the truth is tough to market!  Jim, I suggest a decal on the Cornet chassis.  Ha!!