[Larkston Zinaspic]

This may be a long shot, but I'm wondering if anyone here has compared these two options I'm considering, since I'm wondering what the better value would be between them.

While the Oppo seems like a great all-in-one package, my main concern would be durability. I can easily replace a $170 player, but if I have it modded into what will essentially become an $800 player with better circuitry but flimsy parts, it would seem that I am basically screwed if the unit fails in a few years. Then again, some are saying that the improved performance is well worth it.

With that in mind, if the performance of the modded Oppo is comparable to the VDA-2, or better, then perhaps the VDA-2 would be the better option...but I have no idea.

What do you think?

[Grover]

I have performed a number of modifications to a tube amplifier I own, and have build a tube preamp from a kit.  That doesn't relate to your question, other than to show that I'm familiar with modified a stock amplifier and have built a tube preamp and swapped parts along the way to help tailor the sound.  So I know that modifying an existing component can do a lot of good.

I have not heard the modified Oppo player you're considering.  But I share your concern about throwing three times the cost of a player into the modifications.  If you haven't heard the VDA-2 and VAC-1 combination, let me tell you it's wonderful.  It's also extremely reliable.  So I'd advise to pair that combination with the transport of your choice and you'll probably have a long and happy relationship.

[topround]

Larkston,
This is a no brainer. I own the Channel Islands combo and it will smoke even the modded Oppo. This I know because I have had both in my house. The basic Oppo sound is acceptable, modding it helps, but not to level of the Cia stuff. Modding the Oppo really helps the video though. FWIW.

mike

[knut_the_viking]

Larkston,
This is a no brainer. I own the Channel Islands combo and it will smoke even the modded Oppo. This I know because I have had both in my house. The basic Oppo sound is acceptable, modding it helps, but not to level of the Cia stuff. Modding the Oppo really helps the video though. FWIW.

mike

I've wondered about the same thing. I'm mulling over my next 2-channel CD-centric system.
I am _very_ tempted by the CI Audio products  (and I'm this close: || ) to start buying.
The Oppo mods by EVS or RAM include a new master clock, and this is where I'm not sure: Will a better clock in the transport reduce "jitter" on the digital output, or is the clock upgrades only related to the Oppo Internal DAC?

I understand the VDA-2 does its own re-clocking? Does _any_ transport mods help in that case?

[benzx]

I'm currently using a modded Marantz DV6400 as a transport for the VDA2+VAC1.  I've not owned an oppo and I don't know how much potential the the player has for modding.  It will depend on the player's stock platform.  Anyway, my DV6400 was modded with a master clock upgrade, Mains Incoming Power Filtering with diode change to FREDs and capacitor changes, opamps and capacitor upgrades in the analogue output stage, IEC socket installed for the use of a better powercord.
The players sounds reasonably qood after the mods. However, I did not regret getting the VDA2+VAC1.  Compared to the DVD player, the VDA2 gives better resolution, its more analogue sounding, treble and bass extension is improved and soundstage depth is more 3D. I'm now thinking that the VDA2's performance might be limited by my not so great DVD player as transport.  I'm toying with the idea of getting a dedicated transport to pair with the VDA2. I wonder if Dusty has any plans in the pipeline for that?? 

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the VDA2 does any re-clocking.

[Reference Audio Mods]

Larkston,
This is a no brainer. I own the Channel Islands combo and it will smoke even the modded Oppo. This I know because I have had both in my house. The basic Oppo sound is acceptable, modding it helps, but not to level of the Cia stuff. Modding the Oppo really helps the video though. FWIW.

mike

The Oppo mods by EVS or RAM include a new master clock, and this is where I'm not sure: Will a better clock in the transport reduce "jitter" on the digital output, or is the clock upgrades only related to the Oppo Internal DAC?

I understand the VDA-2 does its own re-clocking? Does _any_ transport mods help in that case?

Hi,

Yes a upgraded clock (to the Superclock 4) will improve everything in the machine, not only for audio performance, and digital output, but also for video as well. The entire unit is depending on that clock, and improving it effects everything.

I feel the most important clock to pay attention too and replace is the one in the transport. Why? This is where the music is, and this is where it is being taken from the disc and  processed to either go out digitally to the internal dac chip or the digital out section. This is where jitter (phase noise) and s/n ratios are the most important or your not going to extract all of the information.  It would only be a "bandaid" to do clocking in a outboard dac or processor. You must hit it where the source is present or its not going to be done correct and sound optimal.

[justin_case]

The entire unit is depending on that clock, and improving it effects everything.

The Oppo makes a great CD transport even stock. The money that extensive mods take would better be spent a really good digital cable. I have no problem with modifications of good inexpensive players within reason ( better caps, power supply diodes and damping the chassis). We are talking 50 to 75 bucks for really good parts and a few hours labor, but dumping several hundred bucks into one is nuts in my opinion.

The clock is recovered by the receiver chip in the DAC and will have 50 to 200 times as much jitter as the clock in the transport at the its output and will be a function of the signal content and the quality of the digital interface. I personally would not bother adding an expensive clock mod to a CD transport. But I am not in the modification business. I am sure that one of the half a dozen people charging big money for mods will tell you different.

Justin

[kkc]

In Feb 2007, I bought the VDA-2 and VAC-1 combo as well as D200s and PLC-1.  I was thinking of getting a CD player but Dusty advised against it.  He said that pretty much any DVD player these days has a clock with more than sufficient resolution and timing accuracy to feed accurately into the VDA-2.

I have not compared an expensive CD transport, but I can tell you that my $150 Philips DVD player in combination with CIAudio gear sounds amazing.  Transparency, depth (without the heaviness), resolution, 3d soundstage, immediacy, tight control over notes - its all there.  The music falls all around the listener like rain drops and on some recordings, the singer seems to be right next to you.  I can tell the difference between a real drum and an electronic one, as well as hear the individual voices amongst a choir of what must be about 10-12 singers.

I would suggest that one never buy the really cheap DVD players.  I also suggest you buy the CI Audio gear and let it all burn in (takes a good few months) and if you like the sound with your existing DVD or CD player then you are all done, no need to spend more bucks.  You might find that the savings could be spent on cables (I also purchased Harmonic Tech cables and these make a big difference) or a portable media player (which support FLAC or some other full resolution codec) with line out to connect to the second VDA-2 input.  Then you will be really rockin n smokin...!

[Reference Audio Mods]

The entire unit is depending on that clock, and improving it effects everything.

The Oppo makes a great CD transport even stock. The money that extensive mods take would better be spent a really good digital cable. I have no problem with modifications of good inexpensive players within reason ( better caps, power supply diodes and damping the chassis). We are talking 50 to 75 bucks for really good parts and a few hours labor, but dumping several hundred bucks into one is nuts in my opinion.

The clock is recovered by the receiver chip in the DAC and will have 50 to 200 times as much jitter as the clock in the transport at the its output and will be a function of the signal content and the quality of the digital interface. I personally would not bother adding an expensive clock mod to a CD transport. But I am not in the modification business. I am sure that one of the half a dozen people charging big money for mods will tell you different.

Justin

Hi,

The effects of a good digital cable will be at best 20% of the total performance in comparison to what the mods/rebuilds will do to this player.
Again, this digital cable is just "passing" information. It is not performing any magic or correcting problems (jitter, noise generated by circuits, components, etc.). Cables are to pass information, and also are mostly basic compensation devices for other problems the units may have (such as high jitter, noise, thermal distortion, eddy current distortion, poor circuir/bad sounding circuit design, etc..), I guess you can call them tuning elements. The cable industry is crazy!

Also, damping the chassis is essentially just changing the internal resonant frequency and depending on what you use to dampen with, that material also has a resonance as well. I have dampened many chassis' to find that the sound goes either way, both good and bad. Sometimes the sound gets darker,sometimes is goes backwards and sounds awful or  sometimes I hear more detail, it really depends on the player. I feel the best damping is natural materials such as wood. But IMO I would perfer to have the circuit boards mount inside of a natural wood pine chassis as this is the best sounding to our ears. I have built a Oppo into a pine wood chassis and the improvments where quite stunning.

I only sell and install clocks because they work, and they work perfect in the oppo, not only for all audio, but also video applications.

But then again, we stress to use the modified player as-is, and its internal DAC chip w/rebuilt circuitry and not an external device to avoid these extra noises, jitter and possible thermal and current distortion issues.

If I had a transport/dac combo that had clocks in both units, I would change both of them to be optimal (sometimes the clock in external DAC's is just for upsampling or other types of processing).

[justin_case]

These are an example of some of the reasons I question the real value provided by most modifiers. Since talent with a soldering iron is not the same thing as knowledge of what they are doing, how much are they "improving " some guy's equipment. Chassis damping around the motor, disc support, and laser mechanism turn vibration to heat and are often very effective. The laser focus and tracking servo modulate the power supply voltage ( the same supply other ICs are sharing less with good damping. There are many excellent damping materials ( EAR for one) easily available to the DIYers and even the informed modifiers.

The SPDIF interface is the bottle neck for separate transport -DAC and bad engineering of this interface damn near killed the separate transport-DAC industry. Even the direction of the digital cable makes a noticeable audible and measurable difference. "Improving" a piece of equipment with big buck "boutique" parts changes seems more an exercise in status than real value for the money or even the the best possible changes for given amount of complexity and time involved.

I have yet to see a single Oppo modifier even use a heat sink on the IC in the switching power supply which runs too hot for long term reliability, the most basic engineering change to any decent technician. You pay your money and take your chances on whether you have spent your money for the best bang for the buck. 

Justin

[Reference Audio Mods]

These are an example of some of the reasons I question the real value provided by most modifiers. Since talent with a soldering iron is not the same thing as knowledge of what they are doing, how much are they "improving " some guy's equipment.

Improving parts for better sounding parts (based on a/b comparisons, not specs!!) in circuits, and minimalizing circuitry is a huge improvment. The caps pretty much ALL manuf. put into their gear are not that good sounding.

Chassis damping around the motor, disc support, and laser mechanism turn vibration to heat and are often very effective. The laser focus and tracking servo modulate the power supply voltage ( the same supply other ICs are sharing less with good damping. There are many excellent damping materials ( EAR for one) easily available to the DIYers and even the informed modifiers.

Have you ever tried this EAR material versus natural materials such as pine/oak/burl maple/cocabola/africa ebony/etc wood? You might be very surprised!

The SPDIF interface is the bottle neck for separate transport -DAC and bad engineering of this interface damn near killed the separate transport-DAC industry. Even the direction of the digital cable makes a noticeable audible and measurable difference. "Improving" a piece of equipment with big buck "boutique" parts changes seems more an exercise in status than real value for the money or even the the best possible changes for given amount of complexity and time involved.

This is the reason why we suggest doing the everything inside the machine in a whole, and the best topology would be I2S output if you really need to go out to a external DAC for some reason.
I have yet to see a single Oppo modifier even use a heat sink on the IC in the switching power supply which runs too hot for long term reliability, the most basic engineering change to any decent technician. You pay your money and take your chances on whether you have spent your money for the best bang for the buck. 

you cannot just use any heatsink and think it is ok, as certain heatsinks have their own unique sound. I perfer bronze myself. However, the heat issue is more important in other areas of the player, rather than in that switching IC chip, I have heatsinked that once before as a tweak and did not hear any improvment.  and also, there is some other basic bottlenecks with the stock design that need to be taken out to really open up the current to the chips...

Justin

[justin_case]

Improving parts for better sounding parts (based on a/b comparisons, not specs!!) in circuits, and minimalizing circuitry is a huge improvment. The caps pretty much ALL manuf. put into their gear are not that good sounding.

Not my quote, to clear up any confusion....

I really can't see arguing about sound of heat sinks and suitability of wood for damping material (its not, that is why they make musical instruments out of wood). My misgivings about who mods equipment what they actually do stands more than ever.


PS

Some of the best sounding caps are also measure very good. Using higher voltage caps also for low ESR helps, but keep them small enough for short lead length and low resonant frequencies.
Half inch leads defeat the point of using a very good capacitor for decoupling.

Pinochio

[JLM]

Anyone think its kinda strange that Dusty hasn't chimed in, but another vendor has?

I own CIA amps and pre-amp as well as an Oppo 971.  And I'm in the same place you are Larkston/knut.  I live within driving distance of RAM, but hesitate going the mod route as too expensive compared to the cost of the player and because the apparent build quality of the player doesn't justify the investment.  By going the VDA/VAC route the major investment is in non-moving parts (and allows me to insert my Berhinger DEQ2496 between to allow it to stay in the digital realm).

I'm a "speaker guy" so seem to be less sensitive to digital related distortions.  The stock Oppo has weaknesses, but I'll live with them until I can afford the VDA/VAC (or maybe a HDTV too).

[Grover]

Anyone think its kinda strange that Dusty hasn't chimed in, but another vendor has?

I think Dusty's on Maui getting a little Rest & Relaxation,  and spending his spare time concocting new Rum drinks. 

[slbenz]

Grover is correct.  Dusty is on vacation celebrating his birthday, his wife's birthday and anniversary all at the same time.  Haven't heard the EVS/RAM modded Oppo 980 player but I did hear RAM's Marantz SA-11 player which at the time was being sold at $25K!!  Yes, it sounded great but there were other modded players there for one-fourth the price that sounded equally as good.  I currently own the CIA VDA-2 and VAC-1 connected to an Oppo 970 which addresses all the shortcomings of the stock Oppo.  I used to own a modded Pioneer 563a player which sounded much better than stock but I had two issues with it that convinced me to go the CIA route.  First, I had the power supply go out on it which luckily at the time was still under warranty.  But this made me think about how vunerable I was with an inexpensive player as the foundation.  Second, the Pioneer was old technology, meaning it was not an upscaler for the video.  Even with the mods, the picture quality still couldn't compare to the Oppo and I own a Mitsubishi DLP.  That alone convinced me to change because technology keeps changing.  So when I went with the CIA route, I was pleasantly surprised to find that I didn't lose any audio quality in 2-channel (and feel I actually gained) but I did lose some with multi-channel formatted material.  But not so much that an aftermarket power cord couldn't correct.  Because I also own a Sony CD megachanger, this is connected to the CIA combo which makes the Sony sound great and gives me all the of the conveniences of the changer.  You'll have to ask yourself do you want additional components connected to your transport that take up more space and have the flexibility of upgrading one component or have the one component solution that saves space but at the same time you are "locked" into the technology and possibly worry about the durability of an inexpensive platform.  Personally, I went with the flexibility.