[Brian Cheney]

Try damping the speaker end walls and ceiling with 3" Sonex or equivalent. Do not use stages or platforms which flex and resonate, even when they appear solid.

Install 3/4" MDF or veneered plywood paneling in the listening end of the room which should amount to about 2/3 of the total square footage.  Diffusers are a good idea in this end of the room; there are many DIY and commercial types available.  Make the listening environment to several feet in front of your listening position as reflective and diffused as possible.

Overdamped rooms are one of the few destructive listening environments that require major surgery: removal of all absorption is a good start.  Your room is well constructed from a rigidity and isolation standpoint but that is just the start.

My "ideal" listening room, 14x31x9' on a concrete slab, with parquet tile in the listening end, a thick carpet, Sonex and 16" and 12" bass traps in the speaker end, greatly benefits from a sloping ceiling which helps defeat some of the vertical room modes.  So, non-parallel surfaces are a great help. All my walls are thick stuccoed outer walls, since the listening room was added on to the side of an existing structure.

[John Casler]

Probably the majority of all of the most respected HT construction guys will tell you this.

I've never heard of a "respected HT construction guy".  Not sure they exist?

My comments were in relation to the pics of the good Oby's set up.  His surround speakers are at least 3-4 feet over his head when seated.

And I don't know who said the "goal" of a HT is a dead room, but that is entirely project/client dependant.  With all the processes and speaker combinatiins and placements to deal with a dead room cannot be the goal but for specific applications.

Sometimes a "HT designer" confuses his designing a HT with designing a large theater which "does" need substantial deadening due to the size.

But in dealing with various HT installations, the criteria are entirely different and in many ways more complicated.
 

I also have a home theater design(now finishing construction after my unexpecting flooding from hell!!). BUT I want musical sound also. I wanted a live end"dead end but went with a Dennis Erksine design which is ususally a good design but I am think about not having a carpeted stage but one with hardwood etc.....But I was think about a fixed postion Stewart screen but it is set back from the front speakers with the center for the larger center behind the screen. I want to have good two channel listening ability in a home theater room.....So what to do???

Hey Larry.

What's with the hardwood stage?  Talent shows? Sa-dono and I do a mean soft shoe  

If you want the best 2 channel, you have to let it take priority over the HT.  

Two channel concerns are:

1) Sweet spot listening convergence and position
2) Acoustic treatment to reduce reflected sound
3) Clean 2 channel signal path

Although there may be argument, I doubt if you will notice a difference in HT performance by addressing "specific" 2 channel audio concerns.

The difference between foley and high quality 2 channel music is substantial.

They can co-exist quite easily, but one has to be given priority and the one that suffers the least is HT.

Now if your talking "multi-channel" audio it gets slightly more complicated.

And it should be made perfectly clear that perfectly set up, multi-channel audio "is not" the same as HT.  You can't use dipole/bipoles and shouldn't even use "onwalls".  Those who tell you, "you can" are blowing smoke up your skirt. (well actually you can use them, but they're not the best)

And just because the "multi-channel" website shows on walls, doesn't mean they are the best for the application.  They just show that so everyone with a HT will use multi-channel too and they can sell more Hdwr and Softwr.

It's really getting tough to know what set up to give priority too.

Also be aware the with a perforated screen you'll need to run the LRC pots "a little hot" since no screen is "sonically invisible".

Why don't you just put some velvet drapes up that can be opened and closed in front of the screen?

And don't get too jealous of me   Although I'm having fun, I'm not having "that" much fun yet.

[Sa-dono]

So if I understand correctly, the X-2 owner has ruined the sound of his system because of "trendy" advice from some nameless installer who read something somewhere about dead rooms being good for HT.

The company that did the room treatments for the X-2 owner is an audio company, and not related to the HT concept for the most part. I do know that said company claims that their treatments take the room and walls out of the equation.

And this is not "'trendy' advice from some nameless installer." These are actually some extremely big names. As far as the HT world goes, some of them are probably more well known than you are in the audio world (and this is not meant in a bad way). This is definitely not to mean that I agree with their designs and goals (as I do disagree with them on numerous points). I just wanted to state what is probably one of the most common design goals in HT for audio right now.

[pjchappy]

Well, why doesn't someone plan a shoot-out of the 2 speakers in. . . uhhhh. . .neutral territory.  It may be a pain, but I bet it would draw a lot of attention.

p

[Brian Cheney]

There's not going to be any shootout, ever.  The two systems are too big, heavy, and time-consuming to set up.  They have different requirements for equipment, load the room differently, have different radiation patterns etc ad nauseum.  

I also wonder what a shootout would prove.  There is no doubt the X-2 owner will prefer his speakers over all others.  A dealer of mine has done numerous shootouts with the 626R and found that, to his dismay, although the 626 clearly outperformed the competing speakers in every sonic regard, often the owners of the other speakers would not admit to it. It's human nature.

If someone who has heard the X-2 wants to come to my demo room with the same material he heard on the Wilsons, I'll be happy to play anything he wants to hear.  

Designers are not immune from the described behaviors.  Most designers are adamant that their design choices and goals are the ultimate and will brook neither criticism nor dissent.  I stopped giving honest opinions to any boothholder at CES, even if the sound is clearly deficient.  Their response is always shock, dismay, denial and hostility.  

The best acousticians in the country, men of high reputation exceeding mine in the high end, built SF Davies Symphony Hall and Avery Fisher Hall in NY, both of which had to be gutted and remain only marginally good listening venues.  The nameless HT installer we are talking about has created a hellish environment for music playback, and HT's requirements aren't that different.

[lkosova]

1. the shoot out should be at Brians place to make it easier for him to say YES. Plus then you could have access to HIS electronics.

My room is in the basement on cement with three cement walls and one common wall with the rest of the basement. It is appox.  21'4" long by 15'2" wide and 8'5" high. It should of mentioned that the walls and ceiling are double dry walled with 5/8 and 1/2.

Yes, the room is isolated and quiet.

Getting rid of the already built stage and platform is not an option(stage is very cool and my 4.5 y/o and 6 year old love to play guitar and sing and perform..I wish I had this when I was young).  No carpet has been laid yet and the room is as I said drywalled.

I know I will not have the "perfect" acoustic room but I think the marriage of HT and highend audio and be achieved and it seems that people I talked to want this concept. I know I will start with what I have and add txs as I go but the concept of design is the confusing part for me....

1. Do I carpet the whole room??

2.Do I add poly from the waist of the room up to line up with the theater sheid from the waist down. This is from a acoustic standpoint. I like the idea of just drywall painted with pictures.

3.Inwalls is just an option I could put  onwalls on (I really don't want to make columns.) This design is more contempory then most. speakers  on first row of platform.

4.The platform and stage are triple thick  and solid but yes I appreciate the fact that they will move slightly.

5.I will have the room metered and add and subtract acoustic txs where I need it but I am trying to do what I can from a design standpoint now.

6. Music is more important then movies to me.

7. 7.1  and multichannel is for future use(did not want to rip down walls) I even have empty electrical boxes at each speaker site(this really did not  add an extra expense..per se) in case Brian went crazy and added a amplified speaker!!

8. John...drapes are in the plans!!!

Remember I have no gear,screen etc and this is the phase I am in now. The electronics will all be mid to high end but can not think about this yet till the room is more on its way. I have not ruled anything out.

Again, I think this concept can work well and this is why I am asking the questions. I know from an Audiophile perspective this is nuts but I appreciate listening to all kinds of music that are well recorded.

BTW- the room will also be used for my home office(why not) and for future things like video conferencing etc.

Many Thanks,

Larry

[shokunin]

The party in question does have some treatment but I would say it is set up more for HT than "Musical Audio" accuracy.

See below:

http://homepage.mac.com/imacdoyou86/Home_Theater/PhotoAlbum24.html

The system by its shear "physical" impressiveness would almost compel one to hear excellence.  Not to mention the "price tag".

Thanks john for the link... man, I think that room needs an interior designer.  Just stick all that black room treatments and black speakers into a pure white painted room with white ceilings, beige carpet and black leather couches.  Reminds me of my college apartment.

I would agree that it would be near impossible to get both systems in one room.  Place of all the gear and optimum tuning and location would be very difficult and time consuming.  However, I would definitely show up for this shootout!!!

The best scenario would be to get obgyn to host a listening session then head down to Brian's or vice versa.  It would not be a pure A/B but it would than listening to the systems at CES.

[James Romeyn]

Kristian,

I've now owned RM40s (w/ TRT) for over a year.  They replaced Thiel CS-3.5 speakers in my main system.  These RM40s are a huge improvement pretty much across the board.  But if I had to select their strongest suit (in my system, in my room), reproduction of acoustic percussion instruments is it.  And it's not even close.  

Attack/decay is spookily dead on.  And I have multiple demos in which the kick drum will absolutely suck the breath out of you.  Dynamics seem to be without boundaries.  I ...

I really like it when non-audiophiles clap when a song ends, especially a well-recorded live tune.

[Housteau]

Install 3/4" MDF or veneered plywood paneling in the listening end of the room which should amount to about 2/3 of the total square footage.  Diffusers are a good idea in this end of the room; there are many DIY and commercial types available.  Make the listening environment to several feet in front of your listening position as reflective and diffused as possible....

Brian, do you suggest diffusers in the locations of the first reflections, such as the side walls between the speakers and listener, or absorption?

So, if the side walls had a slight angle as well, being wider at the listening end, that would be better than rectangular?  For designing the best ratios, would the averages of these dimensions be used?

[Brian Cheney]

Absorption only in the speaker end of the room, diffusors only in the listening end.  My diffusors are other models of our speakers (not on demo) with their inputs shorted.