[Marbles]

When I see a glowing review of a product I need or want in my price range, I don't take said review as an endorsement to buy, rather I take it as an endorsement to put that product on my short list to audition.

This is an often overlooked distinction by some new to audio.

Good or great reviews = you should audition the product, nothing more.

[Freo-1]

When I see a glowing review of a product I need or want in my price range, I don't take said review as an endorsement to buy, rather I take it as an endorsement to put that product on my short list to audition.

This is an often overlooked distinction by some new to audio.

Good or great reviews = you should audition the product, nothing more.

Good point. It never ceases to amaze me how different a product actually performs once you take it home. The speaker/amplifier interaction is especially fraught with potential problems. Just because a speaker sounds great to a reviewer in their set-up does not mean it will work out in your system.

The speaker/room interaction is another area that has to be dealt with, and is another reason that speakers often do not sound the same from one place to another.

I think these reasons are part of why companies like BOSE are successful. Their systems come as a package, and the new ones
"auto calibrate" for room optimization.  (and it's small sized to boot).

[TONEPUB]

When I see a glowing review of a product I need or want in my price range, I don't take said review as an endorsement to buy, rather I take it as an endorsement to put that product on my short list to audition.

Good or great reviews = you should audition the product, nothing more.

Believe it or not, that's all I ever try to do with a review.  I just want you to go check something
out that I had a good time listening to!

We all hear different, so in the end, it's up to you to be happy with it....

[Woodsea]

Good point.  I did that by traveling across the US trying the Norh 6.9's in Ohio and finally to Cal and listened to the 626r that I did purchase.   I cannot do that anymore, so I have to read many reviews and keep my fingers crossed.
Every time I experiment with my pair of speakers and don't cross them over with the Sub (which takes awhile to calibrate) I am always amazed while in the sweet spot.

[Rocket]

Hi Guys,

I would also like to mention that there is a lot of hype that goes around on the net as well that can influence audiophiles to purchase hifi gear direct.

Almost 2 years ago I bought a ps audio hca - 2 and read many many glowing reviews (also it had a stereophile class a rating) off the net from happy customers and in fact I only read one negative reviewer (who turned out to be correct).  Anyway, it was sent from the states to Australia and after my first listening session I was really unimpressed with its sonics.  I personally think that many of the audiophiles who made comments on the hca - 2 hadn't had that much exposure to good quality gear like I did.  Yeah, sure it had good transparency but he bass was terrible in its unmodded form.

I eventually spent about $800us on modifications to get it to sound okay.  I now only buy what I can hear at my dealers as I only trust my own opinion.

Regards

Rod

ps once it was modded it sounds almost as good as my 'son of ampzilla' and n.e.w. dc-66 amplifiers.

[Freo-1]

Hi Guys,

I would also like to mention that there is a lot of hype that goes around on the net as well that can influence audiophiles to purchase hifi gear direct.

Almost 2 years ago I bought a ps audio hca - 2 and read many many glowing reviews (also it had a stereophile class a rating) off the net from happy customers and in fact I only read one negative reviewer (who turned out to be correct).  Anyway, it was sent from the states to Australia and after my first listening session I was really unimpressed with its sonics.  I personally think that many of the audiophiles who made comments on the hca - 2 hadn't had that much exposure to good quality gear like I did.  Yeah, sure it had good transparency but he bass was terrible in its unmodded form.

I eventually spent about $800us on modifications to get it to sound okay.  I now only buy what I can hear at my dealers as I only trust my own opinion.

Regards

Rod

ps once it was modded it sounds almost as good as my 'son of ampzilla' and n.e.w. dc-66 amplifiers.

Interesting feedback.

Most of the modern reviews are done without measurements.  While I am the first to admit that measurements do not necessarily equate to how it ultimately sounds, it sure as hell can give one some clues about it's overall characteristics. That is why I wish more reviewers would go "back to the future" and perform some measurements on these things. One might learn a minor variation in impedance vs. frequency of a given unit may reveal  some of this behavior. After all, these guys who mod equipment do not come up with these in a vacuum.  The reality is, each piece in the audio chain interacts with with whatever it's connected to.

What do you reckon?

[Double Ugly]

While I am the first to admit that measurements do not necessarily equate to how it ultimately sounds, it sure as hell can give one some clues about it's overall characteristics.

Exactly! 

Measurements may be insufficient to completely define the capability or worth of a component, but I can't think of a better place to start!

[warnerwh]

And I believe most engineers find measurements pretty useful.  Not that they define everything but there's a damn good reason engineers use them.  What would we have if they didn't? Fires for one.

I've lost respect for most all of the reviewers. It's commonly hype and their integrity with an untreated room has me questioning their knowledge about high end stereo systems.

[Mike Dzurko]

Measurements are very helpful, but they must be good measurements or they are WORSE than meaningless.  A good set of measurements will give me a pretty good idea of what I'm going to hear . . . BUT, this set of measurements is going to be more complete than any I've seen published.

For example, the common anechoic freq. response measurement tells us only a little about the speakers response in-room. It also shows nothing of delayed resonances in the drive units, out of phase radiation from lively cabinets, or distortion characteristics.

[TONEPUB]

Well here's a good one for you measurment guys...

Please explain why just about any good power amplifier
measures ruler flat from 20-20k yet they all sound different.

While were at it, we can guarantee the same with any
CD player, yet they all sound different as well.

Why does one speaker sound great to one person
and terrible to another?  I'm sure that speaker didn't
measure differently to both listeners...

No matter what the review or the measurments say,
you still have to hear it in your room, with your gear
and your music to see if it works for you.

[Scott F.]

I completely understand where you guys would like to see measurements included in the articles. Trouble is, who is going to fund the purchase (and in most cases) training to use the freshly purchased measurement gear?

What most don't understand is as a writer, we make squat on the articles that get published. Its no big secret but the average writer gets paid about $100 per article. For the latest article I just finished up (the new Consonance Cyber 10 Single Ended KT-88 Amp with a USB onboard DAC), I wrote 7028 words comprising 132 paragraphs or 14 pages in 12 point Arial font in MS Word. That works out to the tidy sum of $0.01428 cents per word typed. I opened the document 15 times for editing lasting a total of just over 3800 minutes. Now, the 3800 minutes is a little erroneous because several times I walked away from my laptop leaving the document open. Guessing, I probably spent about 40 hours typing and editing the document. Add to that another 60 hours (off and on) of listening time for this piece of gear. That works out to about $1.00 per hour. One thing about my writings, I tend to have diarrhea of the fingers. Most online writers, you are lucky to get six, maybe eight paragraphs on a piece of gear. I can't bring myself to doing that. I don't think I've ever typed anything under eight pages. Plus, it doesn't do the piece of gear any justice when (the collective) we blast through an article.

Now, I'm definitely not looking for sympathy, I'm only looking to add some perspective for those who think writing is a cakewalk. Of the six or so articles I write each year, it doesn't even come close to covering what I spend on new music. Forget new gear or measuring equipment. That said, I do have a nice SPL meter, the Sencore SP-295c. Its does Sound Pressure Level, Real-Time Analyzer, Energy-Time Graph, Noise Criteria, Speaker Distortion plus a few more measurements. I'm lucky but the average writer is usually relegated to a Rat Shack SPL meter and thats about it. My shop is pretty well outfitted but the one thing I haven't invested in is a good scope. I will sometime in the near future as I'll be building quite a few amps and pre's for myself (a 50 SET, a parallel 45, a PP EL34 and a 5 channel PP EL84 for the home theatre).

Sure, there are computer based scopes, RTA's, just about everything you can think of, but they still will set you back many hundreds of dollars. Then the average writer will need to be trained to understand exactly what the information on the screen means. Last thing a mag would want to do is publish data that is flawed. That would open a whole new can of worms (considering how litigious America is).

Then it all boils down to what Jeff just wrote. Just because it measures flat, doesn't mean it sounds the same and the gear sitting next to it. That said, I always do in-room measurements of speakers. I do this to verify what my ears are telling me. Of the hundred or two articles I've penned, I've included one in-room graph in the article because I knew nobody would believe me......and they still don't. In fact I got dissed by one of the major print writers for saying (and publishing an in-room graph) a speaker did something that he didn't experience. Its not my fault he doesn't know how to set up and tweak that particular pair of speakers to get the most out of them. Trouble is, the best part of a dozen people  in the GAS group (including Bolder Wayne) heard the exact same thing I did. I dunno, maybe I am delusional. 



Going back to Marbles statement, he is exactly right. If you find us raving (on occasion, not continuously like some on the net), means if you are looking to upgrade/add a piece of gear, you should add this piece to your short list of auditions. (the usual disclaimers apply, assuming your tastes in sound match those of the writer, your system can handle the piece of gear raved about (don't mate 82 dB speakers to a 45 SET amp), your room size is similar, yada, yada, yada.

[Gordy]

Why does one speaker sound great to one person
and terrible to another?  I'm sure that speaker didn't
measure differently to both listeners...

I tend to believe that speakers do "measure" differently to all listeners.  Excluding personal taste and age, the shape of an individual's outer ear and the ear channel influence how we hear sound and that varies with us all!

[*Scotty*]

I think another point should be brought out. A reviewers opinion, no matter how carefully considered does not exist in a contextual vacuum. Their opinion is one of relative merit based on the performance of the DUT evaluated in their current reference system.  In as much as there is always something better or worse than the product being reviewed, this goes along way
towards explaining the inconsistencies that are experienced when a reviewed piece of gear takes up residence in your personal system. To put it another way, the reviewers yardstick by which they measure performance may be a little short. I always consider a reviewers pronouncements in the the context of the the equipment associated with the review.
  I also view approbation by the masses on the internet with a lot of skepticism. Constructing a system based on group consensus is no guarantee of superior performance, it only insures that everybody likes the same thing.  Another important factor that insures the difficulty of discovering good pieces of audio gear is Sturgeon's Law, which states that 90% of everything
is crap. When the ineffectiveness of throwing money at this hobby to achieve superior performance is factored into the equation the ratio probably deteriorates to 98%.
In the light of this grim reality it's no wonder that people look for someone to tell them what is good or offer a short cut to assembling a satisfying system. Hard work and dumb luck
 as well as a dose of salt seem to be be required to successfully assemble a good system these days.
Scotty

[TONEPUB]

The only thing the professional reviewer has to their advantage, is hopefully
the ability to spend with a lot more gear than the average guy.  I see over
100 pieces of gear come through here every year (and that will probably double
in 2008).

Because I do all the photos, of course I take some time to listen to everything
and I make sure my guy Marc Phillips who now lives down the street does as
well, before we ship it to whoever is doing the review.

At the end of the day, all we can do is point you in a direction, and yes we
do all have our biases.  I tend to be the panel guy on staff, but I'm awfully fond
of mini monitors and even single driver speakers.  If I had the space, I'd probably
have four systems, so I could have an example of each to reference.

As with any publication that reviews any kind of products, audio, cars, wine
whatever, hopefully after you've read them for a while you get a feel for what
they like and that will either line up with what you like.  Or even one of your friends.

The hardest part of this hobby these days is that there is SO MUCH stuff out there.

Everybody wants to feel like they bought the right thing for them and that's
understandable.

I just hope at the end of the day, we've been a little bit of help!!

[Zero]

Reviews are what they are; a synopsis of a product from the perspective of an experienced person. Every reviewer, from those earning their stripes to the industry veterans - bring with them their own levels of history, industry exposure, general knowledge (retail and industrial), listening situations, listening bias, style and technique, sense of dedication, and motive. Each of these individual elements carry with them great influence that effects the end-product, the review itself.

So what should a review ultimately mean? To me, it should be a solid reference point. If the reviewer and the manufacturer does his/her job - a reader should know what to expect if they brought the said product in their own abode. A review should be clear and concise as to the products character, just as it should mention what the product works well with, what it doesn't work well with - the good aspects of its performance along with the bad. The end result is a valuable evaluation that can help serve you in your own hunt for sonic nirvana.

At the end of the day, you've got to find a reviewer whose style and approach serves you best. No, it ain't the gospel - and it should never be treated as such.

[JLM]

Please stop worshipping "science".  I've been in engineering for over 30 years and have learned that science is a verb, a process of questioning, postulating, and testing.  Way too often what passes for "science" is facts that are dogmatically memorized in the same way most religion is taught.  Rant off.


Its essential to know the reviewer in order to get a good feel of the review.  If you've read his other reviews you'll hopefully "cross paths" with equipment you know and can know what context to take their comments.  I look for reviewers that I share common ground with.  I'd rather have one review from someone I "know" than 20 reviews by "strangers". 


My reviewer pieves are:

No comparison to comparable equipment (I realize that there are very practical limitations).

No room description, or come to find out an absolutely stupid room (small, odd, or just not like anything most of us would have access to).  Reviews should be done in something akin to a typical finished basement, living room, or bedroom.  Period.

The time wasted reading extraneous text about their favorite vacation spot, wine, etc. (always at the front of the review).

[gbeard]

All,

I found early on that I enjoyed the sound of many of the components reviewed by ETM's Todd Warnke and ultimately built a fab system around a few of those recommendations along with a few of my own choices to tweak it to my liking. Therefore, I do feel that a reader can take the recommendations of a reviewer and be successful building a system. However, no one should ever take a reviewer's recommendation as gospel, it is only a starting point to move forward to one's own experience.

While a person might get lucky and build a great system right out of the gate, I believe it is far more common for most audiophiles to gain experience building systems through the trial and error method. Through my own reviewing and writing, I found the need to explore more and different components and systems. As I have done so, I've found there to be many, many ways of skinning the same musical cat--more than I could ever explore in my limited time on this earth. That is the real value of reading reviews. Finding the one or more reviewers who have bias' similar to your own and using their insights to begin an exploration of one's own.

I will admit that through the process of reviewing gear, I began to grow weary of the negativity that surrounds what we do and decided to write about my experiences with gear rather than strictly "reviewing" gear. For me, it is a more accurate description of what I do. There is no "best" for everyone. There is no right or wrong way to go about enjoying the reproduction of music. There is only what we percieve as right for each of us.

As far as measurements are concerned; certainly I believe they are important. However, I do not have the instruments, knowledge or skill set to measure gear in any meaningful way and at the end of the day, no scope can appreciate great music the way my ears can. In my humble opinion, it is still our listening bias', music, rooms, systems and ears that tell us what we like--and a good reviewer can help us all get there a little quicker. As for my own PFO gig, I have been MIA for a while. I thoughly enjoy writing about audio and hope to get back in the swing soon, after all I need the money.  (Hey Faller, can I get a loan?  )

Gary

[Scott F.]

(Hey Faller, can I get a loan?  )

Just as soon as I get myself out of Audio Debtors Prison, you are welcome to all I have. That or maybe I could crank up the Altec's so you can hear them all the way over in Indy