First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome

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DrOctagon

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First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« on: 28 Sep 2007, 11:45 pm »
Hi, complete newbie here, but I've got some questions.  First, here's my scenario:

Only two high end audio shops where I live (middle of nowhere...too far to drive to audition any other equipment).  As far as the notable brands go, one carries B&W speakers and Rotel/NAD amps.  The other has Paradigm speakers and Marantz, Bryston, and soon will have Cambridge Audio products as well (late Oct).  Other Canadian brand speakers such as Energy, and Yamaha/Denon amps can be found sporadically, but I'm not so much interested in them.

Initially I wanted a nice two channel system and was looking at the Paradigm Studio 100s.  The room I have for this new setup is only 13'x13' however, and I don't have the luxury of treating it exclusively as a listening room, so there will be things like bookshelves, my bed, and a plasma TV/computer set up opposite the bed.  From the reading I've done it sounds like I wouldn't get the full capabilities of the Studio 100s in such an environment.

Also, I listen to a lot of bass heavy music.  Mostly indie rock/pop (50%), but also hip hop (20%), soul and reggae (30%).  Thought that I might be better served going for a 2.1 setup, such as the Paradigm Studio 40s and also getting a PW-2100 to compliment them.  I'm guessing the Studio 40/PW-2100 (or another suitable sub) would allow for a lot more flexibility in getting the 'right' sound for my listening environment than floorstanders?  Or am I mistaken, and floor standing speakers would be that much simpler to set up and enjoy?  Anyway, as much as I enjoy an accurate, refined sound, and appreciate good imaging, I do like my bass.  My funding probably wouldn't allow for the Studio 100/60s AND a sub.  Considering I will also be watching some movies using this setup I'm putting together, a sub would be nice (2.1 for movies is just fine for me...I don't foresee having the funds to put together a 5.1 setup with Paradigm Studio quality speakers anytime soon...).  So again while I had initially hoped for the Studio 100s, I figured I could 'downgrade' to the 40s and pick up the sub with the difference in cost.

I have a relatively high end headphone setup (Senn HD650 + BlueDragon v2 cable/GS-1/heavily modded CD-25), and can use my source (paid $1600 a couple years back for the Music Hall CD-25 and every mod available from a particular vendor who is out of business now...) for CDs.  I'm looking to get into computer audio more so now though.  I have a Squeezebox 3 on the way, and am reading up on DACs.  Naturally I'll be listening to FLACs.

I guess what I'm wondering is, am I on the right path?  My options for speakers are painfully limited (doesn't make much sense to buy even used, considering the shipping costs to my remote location), but will the Studio 40/PW-2100 serve my needs...or am I overshooting/undershooting what I should be considering (taking into account my small listening space which has a multitude of large objects in the room, my musical preference, etc)?

For an amp I've considered buying used.  Probably just a quality integrated amp for my uses (for the 2.1 setup).  The Paradigm dealer has Cambridge equipment coming in soon as I mentioned, and the 840A looks promising from what I've read.  If I stick with the Cambridge lineup do I need to go as high as the 840A, or would a 740A or even 640A suffice (I guess I'll be able to hear the difference in a month's time when they are in stock)?  If I don't buy a new Cambridge from my dealer, what are some other integrated amps I should be considering?  I prefer a warm, smooth sound (details aren't everything to me...I enjoy just getting lost in the music; PRaT is important).

As far as a DAC goes, I've been hearing great things about the Stello DA100.  Now I don't know about the ratio one should be spending between speakers/amp/source...would the $700 Stello be adequate for say the Studio 40/PW-100 + 840A setup, or should I be looking higher up the food chain in terms of DACs?

I realize I haven't mentioned price, but my dealer has financing options for their equipment (thank goodness); I'm pretty much set on Paradigm speakers and possibly buying a Cambridge amp through them as well.  If I were to go the used/Audiogon route, I suppose my max for an amp would be in the $1200-1300 range.  Don't really know what to spend on a DAC, but if I could keep it around the $700 mark of the Stello, that would be great.

Sorry for a long winded post, but any input you guys can give me about my plans or any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

DrOctagon

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #1 on: 29 Sep 2007, 01:39 am »
Hmm, didn't realize my post ended up so long...

In a nutshell:

Will a Paradigm Studio 40 + PW2100 // Cambridge Audio Azur 840A // Stello DA100 setup satisfy a person that listens to bass heavy (indie rock/pop, soul, reggae and hip hop) music, that enjoys PRaT and a generally smooth/musical sound (I'm not too analytical...don't wish to go the tube route either...can't audition equipment such as amps/dac's due to remote location)?  Room size is 13'x13'; the setup will be against one wall with a bed facing it from the other side of the room.

Will the Stello DAC suffice, given the comparatively more expensive speakers/amp?  Will the Azur 840A be overkill (should I look further down the Cambridge chain, or to another maker altogether...and what should I be looking in an integrated amp to drive the Studio 40s + a sub) for the Studio 40s + PW2100?  Due to the small space (not to mention various sizable objects cluttering the room) and my listening tastes is the Studio 40 + PW2100 a better bet than springing for the Studio 100s?

Thanks.

EthanH

Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #2 on: 29 Sep 2007, 03:53 am »
I think the paradigm setup would be a pretty good move.  You should have a sufficient quantity of bass, and since it's paradigm you'll be able to easily resell if you don't like it.  I had a pair of B&W 602s with a paradigm ultracube sub in a room around that size and it got plenty loud and I felt pretty satisfied for awhile.

FWIW, I feel like the lower end "multi purpose" B&W and paradigm lines are more designed for home theater than music use, and both have the "boom and sizzle" thing going (although IMHO the B&Ws are the more flagrant offenders in this sense).  I bought a pair of Totem Arros and find them far more musical and just plain better than my previous setup in every category except sheer bass output.  For me, the budget sub/sat combo just never sounded totally coherent, and always got fatiguing after more than an hour or two of listening, with or without tubes.  Maybe you can try to give a small floorstander known for being musical a listen before making your final choice.

JLM

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #3 on: 1 Oct 2007, 03:14 pm »
Welcome Dr. 8,

I feel your pain about not having audio shops nearby.  I know of only two dedicated to audio in Michigan and neither has a decent place to listen and have very limited selection.

I've heard Paradigm, but it's been awhile.  For less than fully critical listening it will be nice stuff.  But if you're buying a sub anyway, why go for the 40's and not the 20's?  (I'm not a 2.5 way fan.)  If the speakers have to be against a wall, better to let the sub do as much of the bass possible.  At least with a sub, you can turn it down, move it, etc. so that the speakers are positioned where they sound best and the sub can go where it can sound best (rarely both in the same place).

You're right, the 100's would way overwhelm a small room.  Beware of small/square rooms, they will boom one note bass.

A couple more to consider for about the same price (that should be much better) are Green Mountain Audio's Europa and Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1.  All GMA stuff is well respected.  I've found that my Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s have very high content value, very musical, and image like champs.  The new Sierra-1 should be much nicer.  Frankly the CBM-170s match well against the Paradigm 20s for half the price (if you can accept their very lackluster vinyl covering).  Realize that retailing roughly doubles factory direct pricing.

I've looked at the Cambridge Audio CDPs too (I was looking for a CDP that had digital input/output so allow insertion of digital room EQ).  The biggest difference I've seen in the 740 and 840 is that the 840 adds balanced outputs.

I'm a "speaker guy" so I'd not worry much about the amp.

Bob Reynolds

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #4 on: 1 Oct 2007, 11:26 pm »
Yes, I think you are definitely on the right track with a 2.1 system. I would suggest stepping up in the subwoofer line if you can swing it. Also, don't forget the X-30 sub control unit.

I've used Cambridge CD players and I think they are an excellent value. The 840C has digital inputs so there's no need for an external DAC. Even the little 340C is quite good.

As another option you might consider active speakers. If you don't mind the look of speakers with no grill cloth, there are several "studio" systems worth considering. For example, Mackie HR824mkII with sub or Blue Sky System One or JBL LSR4328 with sub. The JBL's are interesting because they'll take a digital signal directly and have volume control built into the speakers.

Here's some choices: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/1641/Monitors_Active_Monitors.html

DrOctagon

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #5 on: 2 Oct 2007, 08:31 am »
Bob, is the X-30 sub control unit a must?  I've gone to my Paradigm dealer twice, and they tell me its just a matter of hooking up the RCA to the pre-amp out of whatever integrated amp I get.  Or the one kid (who didn't seem very knowledgeable...tried to sell me on a higher end Paradigm than I wanted simply because 'dude, it's awesome, so much better' pretty much...) did anyway once I went back there with some more knowledge about what I was looking for.

On another forum I've had the Paradigm Studio 20s + Ultracube10 suggested to me for my purposes (small room, bass heavy music).  Right now I'm mostly just trying to figure out what amp to get.  It's been suggested I go for a Bryston, even if the B60 ends up being 2.5x the price of the Studio 20s (hard concept for me to come to grips with...).  I am however thinking of taking a chance blindly on a Rega Mira 3 to drive the Studio 20s, as the Rega house sound sounds RIGHT up my alley.  I can audition the Bryston, but not the Rega...but I have no problem buying blindly (so long as shipping doesn't kill me...which is the reason I'm buying speakers here in town, and am limited to only B&W or Paradigms).

As far a source, for CDs I'll be using my heavily modded Music Hall CD-25.  But since I mostly listen to FLACs via my computer nowadays, that's why I'm looking into an external DAC.  Do you guys think the Stello DA100 would do the Paradigm 20 + sub and say the Bryston B60 justice?

JLM

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #6 on: 2 Oct 2007, 10:41 am »
Lets take a step back...

As I try to reread your first post this is a second system, in a (frankly) second rate room/setup, and you have a limited (but not really limiting) budget to put together a complete stereo system that integrates with TV.  You're after a warm sound with lots of bass potential.  Right so far?

I agree with the idea of investing into 2 good channels rather than 5, 6, or 7 marginal ones as I did the same years ago.  I only moved to 5.1 when we built a family room, pre-wired for rear channels, and got tired staring at the wires hanging out of the wall waiting for speakers.  BTW I have a separate, better audio system.

In a small, square room with limited setup and treatment options getting deep, tight bass is going to be a problem.  But a sub is your best bet as it allows for position and volume adjustments.  It is harder to properly setup, but I don't see where you have much of a choice given the room constraints and your desire for lots of bass.  Buy the sub locally, with exchange/return rights, as help with proper setup and that nasty room may require trying a number of options.  (And shipping a sub back and forth can get expensive.)  You may even find that, depending on the speakers you get, that you prefer not having a sub (I fear that your nasty room will be none too kind to bass notes) or that you'll want very small speakers with a high crossover point to allow more control by the sub.

Digital players/formats keep changing rapidly, so I wouldn't invest heavily there.  My $150 Oppo 971 is killer, as most owners and reviewers would agree for a second system.  Build quality is about what you'd expect for the money, but the sound is quite good.  Its a bit crude and rough on the edges compared to the typical $1000 CDP, but its a universal player so you could use it for music or video and comes with a volume control.  Later if/when you find something better it could move into a second or third room with TV.

Paradigm speakers are well built for the money.  They lack vice, but also lack soul.  They make for good entry level stuff into the high end (I've not heard the new top of the line stuff, which I'm sure is better, but seems would be beyond your budget).  Its hard to be critical or excited about Paradigm speakers.  They make for a safe, but sterile decision.  They're almost the home version of studio monitors (which should be exceedingly neutral while capturing every detail).  What I'm trying to say is that they do all the hi-fi things, but lack emotion.  You may like this after listening to headphones (I did headphones for a year in college).  But to me, this very analytical presentation is like seeing pencil sketches, not textured oil paintings that makes me think too much and not absorb the music.

I could say the same for Rotel or Bryston (well built, without vice, but without soul, exceeding neutral, safe, but lack emotion).  It like I'm a "tube guy" (but am not).

If you're into the detailed/analytical sound, professional monitors like the Mackie HR824 would be sweet, especially with the Oppo (or any player with volume controls).  Most professional monitors, like the HR824, are "active" which means that they include one amp per driver with a crossover before the power amps.  So you only need to connect the player to the speakers via a long pair of RCA to balanced interconnects and A/C receptacles near each speaker and the player for power and you're done.

The advantages of active design (a direct connection between amp and driver) is undeniable, yet ignored by most audiophiles (most of whom have never heard active speakers and who want to swap equipment as part of the hobby).  Frequency response is flatter, dynamics are greatly improved, and bass depth/power is unbelievable.  Years ago Paradigm sold Studio 20s for $800/pair and Active 20s (the active version of the Studio 20s) for $1600/pair.  There was no comparison.  The Active 20s had the bass output of Studio 80s (then $1600/pair).  Passersby were in disbelief of what they were hearing.  Nowadays PMC (Professional Monitor Company, part of Bryston) is about the only company to market reasonably priced active speakers for home use.

Its hard to shop speakers from the net.  You need to do tons of reading between the lines and getting to know the reviewer's biases.  Getting out to shows, or local audiophile meetings (see the list here at AC) helps a great deal.  But the net is where its happening.  As you have found, bricks and mortar audio retailing is so dead.  And auditioning in home is the only way to know for sure if you'll be happy with a given piece.

mcullinan

Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #7 on: 2 Oct 2007, 01:57 pm »
Dr. Octogon,
(thats a rap band i thnk, right?)

I just wanted to jump in about the Paradigm and I know you have limited listening options.

Quote
Paradigm speakers are well built for the money.  They lack vice, but also lack soul.
I agree totally. Ive listen to the Paradigms countless times in different setups and found them falling to the background and maybe even clinical. Ive heard good things about the B&W 685 so you may want to check them out. Your room is small and I would go with a Sattelite/sub combo. This way you can dial in the amount of bass you want, instead of ending up with too much bass and no where to run.
Mike



woodsyi

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #8 on: 2 Oct 2007, 02:13 pm »
I know how it is when you are on a shopping mode (I've been there too often  :wink: ) and this may not make me popular. 

BUT, you may want to reconsider.

13' x 13' room with no possibility for bass traps is not going to make any speaker combo sound good considering your musical preference.  I would say keep your cans and hold on to your money until you get a bigger, non-square room.

Bob Reynolds

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #9 on: 2 Oct 2007, 03:10 pm »
Bob, is the X-30 sub control unit a must? 

I think so. Yes, you can hook up any sub in bass reinforcement mode by simply running parallel ICs from the preamp to the sub. This runs the main speakers full range, which isn't necessarily bad if you have true full range speakers. The better hookup approach, in my opinion, is bass replacement. Here you run preamp outs to an external crossover (X-30) and from there to the main amps and the sub. This inserts a high-pass filter for the main amps/speakers, which removes the bass load from speakers that were not designed to produce bass. You can also use a smaller amp since it won't have bass duties. You are effectively creating a 3-way speaker system with the bass being handled by a specially designed bass speaker.

The key think about using bass replacement is that you have to have access between the preamp and amp. Many integrated amps provide preamp outs, but do not provide main amp in jacks. Bryston, NAD do. And the little Rega Mira 3 does as well. So your choice of the Rega will not hinder you in any way.

I think the Studio 20s would be a good match with a Seismic 10 sub. I think going up in the sub line is a good investment; you can always use a good sub with any other speakers you may try later.

I don't buy any of the talk about Paradigm speakers lacking anything. These are all subjective personal opinions and should have almost zero influence on your decision.

I also don't put much stock in the comments about square rooms. Yes, acoustically a square room is a problem (a perfect cube is worse), but it won't limit you from having a perfectly enjoyable system. At some point in time you could add a Velodyne SMS-1 digital parameteric equalizer to tame some of the room modes. In fact, you could consider a Velodyne SPL-R sub now instead of a Paradigm (http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/products/product.aspx?ID=13&sid=291k556u).

If you haven't seen this, it might be worth considering: http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=2VESPL1500RB  It would be hard to pass up.


DrOctagon

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #10 on: 3 Oct 2007, 05:50 am »
JLM, you are accurate as to what I'm after...and yes this will be a pretty sub-par system by most audiophile's standards I'd imagine.  But, I'm just starting out, and where I'm coming from (Logitech computer setup/old Sony tower speakers) anything is going to sound terrific at this point.  Still, I'd like to be able to spend my money wisely and get a setup that will keep me satisfied for a number of years to come.  My room size for this setup isn't likely going to change within the next decade, unfortunately...so I've got to make do with obtrusive objects being in a small listening environment, like my bedroom for now.

As much as I'd like to, buying speakers online just doesn't make much sense for me (I've been quoted at a minimum of $200 shipping for sats alone from most places...new or used), when B&W or Paradigms seem like a logical starting point and are accessible for audition here.  So those are the brands I'm sticking with, and I prefer the Paradigms of the two.  Again, unfortunately my options as far as a sub go (unless I'm willing to fork out a gargantuan sum of money ((for me)) on shipping for another option) are pretty much within the Paradigm lineup.

Woodsyi, I've grown tired of my (decent) headphone setup (upgrading isn't something I'm after...I just don't enjoy wearing/listening to headphones as much as I do hearing my music through speakers), and want to get into speakers regardless of them reaching their full potential in such an environment as they'll be in.  I guess what I'm after is sort of a lousy compromise...trying to get the best sound I can out of a handful of brands, inside of a poor listening environment.  It's unfortunate, but that's my situation.  I'll send AudioAdvisor an email about that sub, but I cringe at thinking what it'll cost to ship here...

Thanks for the info, Bob.  I really am a newbie when it comes to understanding all the connections necessary for what I'm after...thanks for shedding some light on the subject.  I think I understand...

My source for this setup will be about 75% computer based and 25% CD based, that's why I've been curious if you guys had any input on an accompanying DAC for the gear I've been considering.  The Stello DA100 was something I've had my sights set on for quite a while now actually (before even considering the move to a speaker setup), so I'm mostly just looking for reasons to get another comparable DAC.

Again thanks for your input guys, it's greatly appreciated.

Bob Reynolds

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #11 on: 3 Oct 2007, 02:17 pm »
I could be wrong, but I think AudioAdvisor will ship that sub for free.

I think you could do a lot worse than sticking with Paradigm.

I don't know anything about the Stello DAC, but Benchmark has recently released a USB version of their DAC1.

If you have any questions about the sat/sub connection, drop me an email. I'm happy to help if I can.

BTW, you might want to look at the Outlaw receiver - builtin bass management and USB input. http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

Good luck,
Bob
« Last Edit: 3 Oct 2007, 02:37 pm by Bob Reynolds »

mcullinan

Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #12 on: 3 Oct 2007, 03:02 pm »
I could be wrong, but I think AudioAdvisor will ship that sub for free.

I think you could do a lot worse than sticking with Paradigm.

I don't know anything about the Stello DAC, but Benchmark has recently released a USB version of their DAC1.

If you have any questions about the sat/sub connection, drop me an email. I'm happy to help if I can.

BTW, you might want to look at the Outlaw receiver - builtin bass management and USB input. http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

Good luck,
Bob


Your right,,, it might have been the setup and room that I heard the Paradigms in...and it is my opinion so you really have to listen and decide what you like most.  There are a lot worse out there. What about going to an Audio Show and listening to whats available. I would find a way to audition as much equipment as possible before making your decision. Good Luck.
Mike

Duke

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #13 on: 4 Oct 2007, 01:09 am »
Dr Octagon,

Here's my $.02.

The problem with trying to reproduce good bass in small rooms is that you will have a very distinct room-induced peak-and-dip pattern that will give you too much bass at some frequencies and not enough bass at others.   If you want to be able to crank the bass up, you also want it to be smooth so that it doesn't sound overpowering and muddy at any one frequency.

The difference in bass that the room itself makes will be greater than the difference in going from one decent-quality subwoofer to another.   In other words, the primary factor is room acoustics, not subwoofer quality.  And you really can't do much to change the room's acoustics - but as you will see there is a way to work with the room's acoustic effects instead of against them.

For instance, equalization can help, but only for one listening position (it's an electronic solution to what is fundamentally an acoustic problem).  Move somewhere else in the room, and the equalization may well make the bass even worse than it was before.

Now each bass source in the room (full-range speaker or subwoofer) will generate a unique peak-and-dip pattern at the listening position.   So, we would expect two full-range speakers to give you smoother bass than a single subwoofer, because each full-range speaker will generate a different peak-and-dip pattern at the listening position, and the average of these two will be smoother than either one all by itself would have been.

An even better solution would be two subwoofers, located in very different places within the room.  Like one near the left-front corner, and one along the right-hand wall about 2/3 of the way back and up closer to the ceiling than to the floor.  The ideal would be to stagger the location of the two subs in all 3 dimensions (actually there's an argument for going with more than 2 subs, but 2 is probably the practical limit for most people.  Remember also, the more subs the smaller each one can be).   Now we're talking about an acoustic solution to an acoustic problem.

So my suggesion is to get the smaller speakers and two smaller subwoofers instead of one big subwoofer.  This way you can scatter the two subs around the room, which will maximize the dissimilarity in their individual room-induced peak-and-dip patterns, resulting in a smoother average.

A couple of things to keep in mind:  The ear cannot even detect a bass note until at least a half-wavelength of it has reached the ears, so don't worry too much about getting the arrival times of the bass to coincide exactly with the arrival times of the two main speakers.  Also, if you are going to use this widely-scattered format, you MUST have a very steep low-pass-filter on your subwoofers' plate amps.  You want at least a 3rd order filter, and preferably a 4th order filter, so that you cannot hear the location of the subwoofers because of upper bass emerging from them.   Finally, the two subwoofers do not have to be identical.  They will not be operating in stereo mode; each will be reproducing a summed mono signal.  But at least one of them must have that steep slope low-pass filter; position that one well outside of the main speakers nd back closer to the listening position, and position the other one near or even partway between the main speakers.

Best of luck to you.

Duke

mcullinan

Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #14 on: 4 Oct 2007, 02:08 am »
Dr Octagon,

Here's my $.02.

The problem with trying to reproduce good bass in small rooms is that you will have a very distinct room-induced peak-and-dip pattern that will give you too much bass at some frequencies and not enough bass at others.   If you want to be able to crank the bass up, you also want it to be smooth so that it doesn't sound overpowering and muddy at any one frequency.

The difference in bass that the room itself makes will be greater than the difference in going from one decent-quality subwoofer to another.   In other words, the primary factor is room acoustics, not subwoofer quality.  And you really can't do much to change the room's acoustics - but as you will see there is a way to work with the room's acoustic effects instead of against them.

For instance, equalization can help, but only for one listening position (it's an electronic solution to what is fundamentally an acoustic problem).  Move somewhere else in the room, and the equalization may well make the bass even worse than it was before.

Now each bass source in the room (full-range speaker or subwoofer) will generate a unique peak-and-dip pattern at the listening position.   So, we would expect two full-range speakers to give you smoother bass than a single subwoofer, because each full-range speaker will generate a different peak-and-dip pattern at the listening position, and the average of these two will be smoother than either one all by itself would have been.

An even better solution would be two subwoofers, located in very different places within the room.  Like one near the left-front corner, and one along the right-hand wall about 2/3 of the way back and up closer to the ceiling than to the floor.  The ideal would be to stagger the location of the two subs in all 3 dimensions (actually there's an argument for going with more than 2 subs, but 2 is probably the practical limit for most people.  Remember also, the more subs the smaller each one can be).   Now we're talking about an acoustic solution to an acoustic problem.

So my suggesion is to get the smaller speakers and two smaller subwoofers instead of one big subwoofer.  This way you can scatter the two subs around the room, which will maximize the dissimilarity in their individual room-induced peak-and-dip patterns, resulting in a smoother average.

A couple of things to keep in mind:  The ear cannot even detect a bass note until at least a half-wavelength of it has reached the ears, so don't worry too much about getting the arrival times of the bass to coincide exactly with the arrival times of the two main speakers.  Also, if you are going to use this widely-scattered format, you MUST have a very steep low-pass-filter on your subwoofers' plate amps.  You want at least a 3rd order filter, and preferably a 4th order filter, so that you cannot hear the location of the subwoofers because of upper bass emerging from them.   Finally, the two subwoofers do not have to be identical.  They will not be operating in stereo mode; each will be reproducing a summed mono signal.  But at least one of them must have that steep slope low-pass filter; position that one well outside of the main speakers nd back closer to the listening position, and position the other one near or even partway between the main speakers.

Best of luck to you.

Duke
wow... You are smart! Can i get some? Maybe a small brain transfusion. Im not asking for much.. A small frankenstein thing between friends.
mike:)

Duke

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #15 on: 4 Oct 2007, 02:56 am »
Mike, me no smart.  Me talk a good game, that all.

Dook
« Last Edit: 4 Oct 2007, 03:17 am by Duke »

woodsyi

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #16 on: 4 Oct 2007, 12:01 pm »
Duke,

Don't you have a multi-sub system that would work in this room? 

JLM

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #17 on: 4 Oct 2007, 02:16 pm »
I agree with most of what's been said so far:

BTW I was only trying to characterize this system compared to your headphone system.

The small/square room is your biggest challenge.  You'll be fighting one-note bass.  I agree with Duke, two small subs can sound better than one large one, but will add to the set-up headaches.  And imaging is bound to be less than ideal.  No need to "over invest" in this dog of a room.

If you're stuck on Paradigms (again not a real slam, just not a very exciting choice), I wouldn't invest heavily into the rest of the system.  Cambridge 640 stuff would probably be a good match.  No need to spend more.  The Benchmark USB DAC would fit your system with minimal fuss, and if you were willing to give up on having a remote control, you wouldn't need a pre-amp or integrated amp.  But it's out of line (better/more expense) with the Paradigms (unless you move up to the S2).

sts9fan

Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #18 on: 4 Oct 2007, 02:30 pm »
Quote
Dr. Octogon,
(thats a rap band i thnk, right?)

No he is actually a Octagonacologist
Half manaligator half shark
Is he weird????

I LOVE Kool Keith!!

As for speakers, I started off with Studio 60 V3s and a stereo receiver I was very happy with that set up.  Then the bug hit...HARD and there was no going back. 

Duke

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Re: First Speaker Setup...advice/suggestions welcome
« Reply #19 on: 4 Oct 2007, 08:59 pm »
Hello woodsyi,

Yes I do make a four-piece subwoofer system; the intention was something that would blend well with Maggies and Quads and such.  It's not up on my website yet.  I get the impression that Dr. Octagon wants something he can get locally, and I'm not sure that four (even if they're fairly small) boxes would be practical in his room. 

Also, to recommend my stuff here like that would be overly commercial and imho would cross the line - so I just recommend the multi-sub concept. 

As a general principle in-room bass smoothness increases as the number of widely-spaced low frequency sources increases, so four should be significantly smoother than two and eight should be significantly smoother than four.

Here's a link to a post by physicist Earl Geddes on the subject:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=208728&highlight=sources+egeddes&r=&session=

Earl is pretty much my mentor when it comes to bass reproduction.  His ideas often fly in the face of commonly accepted audiophile doctrine, but they are always based on science and in my experience they work.

Here's the link to Earl's brief study of two different multi-sub positioning concepts, comparing symmetrical vs asymmetrical placement:

http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/sub%20study%20.pdf

Duke