[ajzepp]

Okay, I wasn't going to do anything but post some pics tonight, but I'm on my third familiar CD and I don't even need to wait before I can speak to some of the acoustic changes. First of all, I want to thank Bryan and Glenn (and Anthony) of GIK for all their help in guidance. This was my first time messing with treatments, and they both made me feel as though they were in my corner the whole way. That being said, this is only the first wave...I plan to add a few more in the next 30 days.

Okay, so as Glenn asked me in an email a few mins ago, "how does it sound?"  Well, I'm both pleased and disappointed, but the latter applies only to my gear   The first thing I noticed was that the music sounds damn good no matter where I am in the room. Before, if you were outside the sweet spot it sounded very non-engaging. If you're in the sweet spot now, though, it's really quite an improvement. Imaging is more accurate, and the soundstage has clearly widened. The sound is richer overall, and I'm getting closer to what I know my speakers are capable of doing now that I've minimized the impact of the room.

Unfortunately I've come to realize just how poor my Outlaw pre/pro is for two channel. How do I know this? Well, after taking the room out of the equation a bit, there is a HUGE difference between the performance of my Denon 2900 (using analog bypass) and the DACs in my Outlaw (when using the coax dig cable). It's not that I didn't notice a difference before, but it was very subtle. Now it's all up in my face, and I NEED to get a stereo preamp in here ASAP. I would just use the analog bypass since it sounds better, but then bass mgt becomes an issues. I want to just get a good quality preamp (Van Alstine Transcendence would be nice   ) and have a nice clean 2-channel path.

Anyway, these GIK panels are every bit as good as others say. The two main factors that pushed me in Glenn's direction were pricing and location. I live in Atlanta, so it was only a 30-min trip to their front door. As for pricing, I actually think Glenn should charge a little more, lol. It's really a pretty remarkable investment, and I can't believe I got 12 damn panels for this money.

Anyway, those are my initial impressions. My room is relatively small (12x16 with sloped ceiling), and I went against what Bryan suggested by putting my gear on the long wall (just worked out better in terms of functionality), but my system is sounding damn good right now. I'm listening to Amos Lee's "Careless", and the disc sounds a helluva lot better than it did yesterday 

Here's some pics... http://profile.imageshack.us/user/AJZepp/


BTW, those little "splotches" on one or two of the pics aren't on the panels...must be I have a dirty camera and didn't realize it 

[satfrat]

Man you need a flash real bad,,, a little light would have helped those pictures out alot. The 1 thing that stuck out for me was that Butler TDB-5150 tube hybrid amp. I saw that and the first thing I was asking myself is why is he using a Denon amp? I've had 2 TDB-3150 amps in my 6.1 system for over 4 years and I still get pretty high on them. Anywho, this is about room treatment and right off the bat, I'd suggest carpet or at least a rug between your chair and the speakers. You may want to try one just for the hell of it. From the looks of that room, you're about as anal as I am when it comes to room treatment. You did a righteous job on the front, side, rear, and side corners. Have you thought about the side wall/ceiling edging? Just like you did on the front wall edges but on each side of your chair. Make any sense to ya? I'm reading back what i wrote and I'm thinking no one's gonna know what the **** I'm saying. I've got some nice Adapt Series rectangles from Eighth Nerve that work sweet in this application. Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Maybe GIK has something in this application?


I'm totally envious of your projector system. I want to go there in the worse way but with a 11' x 17' room,,, I just don't have the room. Thanks for sharing your world with us!  

Robin

[ajzepp]

Thanks for the feedback, Satfrat

I'm totally with ya on the Butler, man....I wouldn't trade my 5150 for anything. It was this amp that proved to me that not all amps sound alike. When I replaced my Outlaw monoblocks with it, I was really surprised at the improvement. I remember the first thing I watched after hooking it up was The Sopranos, of all things. There was this scene where wind was moving through the trees, and I was like, "whooooaaaaa", lol. I just wish Butler made a damn preamp!!

As for the treatments, I'm definitely going to be adding/changing things up. This was just the first wave since I really had no prior experience. I plan to pick up some tri-traps from Glenn still, and possible replace the panels in the front corner with stacked tris. I have a sloped ceiling, and Bryan (BPape) suggested placing treatments across the crease, so at some point I'll deal with that, too. Maybe some of those acoustic-friendly wood blinds that help diffuse the sound? I have that one panel just sitting on the floor at the first reflection point....best I could do for now. I'll definitely keep in mind your suggestion about the carpet...you have any good websites in mind for that?

I wouldn't give up on the projector thing. My room is about the same size as yours, and with the zoom lenses on some of these machines, combined with the fact that you can sit a bit closer with the high def images, you might could find a way to make it work (?)  Heck, I paid like nine bills for this little Sanyo Z2 in late '05, and it was already three models outdated....but it's worked like a champ! I only use it for sports and movies, but I really enjoy having it.

The camera was actually my brothers (beggars can't be choosers, I guess! lol), and I agree the pics are kinda lousy....I love the olive color on the walls, but they look like vomit in the pics 

Gotta love this hobby!! 

[bpape]

Nice job AJ.  That sure didn't take you long. 

Unfortunately, you're right.  Once you take the room out of the equation, a lot of problems that were masked before by overly long decay times, SBIR issues, reflections messing with timbre, etc. - it's a lot easier to hear differences.

The wood blinds can work nicely if you get the big ones like 2" slats.  We'll have to deal with the other side too though. 

Satfrat

At this time we don't have anything smaller like that for upper corner seams, etc.  We're working on something for the upper Tri Corners though. 

Bryan

[ajzepp]

Nice job AJ.  That sure didn't take you long. 

Thanks, Bryan...I was a man on a mission today  

[satfrat]

Nice job AJ.  That sure didn't take you long. 

Thanks, Bryan...I was a man on a mission today  

No doubt about it, you got a lot to be proud of there. I was going to recommend ceiling treatment for the first reflection from your front speakers to your chair but when I saw those sloped ceilings, I'm saying why bother. But being anal about things like this,,,,, I did. 

Robin

[ajzepp]

Nice job AJ.  That sure didn't take you long. 

Thanks, Bryan...I was a man on a mission today  

No doubt about it, you got a lot to be proud of there. I was going to recommend ceiling treatment for the first reflection from your front speakers to your chair but when I saw those sloped ceilings, I'm saying why bother. But being anal about things like this,,,,, I did. 

Robin

lol...I'm just afraid to mount a couple of these panels up there....I'd have to be certain that it was secure, cause the last thing I want is for it to come down on top of my head     

I just watched 'The Office' from tonight and I can't believe how much different even TV sounds. I dare say that if I hadn't put up these things, I'd have been continuing to waste what is, at least to me, a very expensive speaker. I just had no idea how much the room came into play with regard to sound...everything I've ever heard about this is spot-on.

Do you have any more pics of your room? I love looking at other systems 

I also see in your gear list that you are a Mapleshade customer. I've been really interested in giving their maple pinths a shot with my Super 8s. This house is on a concrete slab, and Pierre swears that the plinths will make a nice improvement in the sound. After hearing some of the Mapleshade recordings, I'm inclined to believe just about anything he says 

[satfrat]

I have this type of setup on my BPT power conditioner (I really got anal on this puppy)

On my 6 shelf rack, the BPT's at the bottom followed by Butler 3150, Sunfire Theater Grand 4 processor, Butler 3150, DirecTv HD DVR, and my Cellar Cinemas HTPC that's really the heart of my system. The HTPC stores 2714 albums at last count, CD/DVD player (TheaterTeK), DIVO recorder for my C-band satellite and as a music source blows away many a CDP. EVERY cable, power cord, speaker wire,,, even video cable has both Bybees and Z-Sleeves. It's an anal power conditioning thing with me.  


The captain's seat w/keyboard table and my buddy, Bandit.


Here's a Furutech Room Tuning Panel that I use for the ceiling and the first reflection walls.


The TV is a Sony 36XBR400, Sony's first HD-ready set and has been ISF-calibrated twice. All 4 of my Lorelei's sit on Sistrum Platforms and the front Usher X-616 sits on a custom oak Timberland stand of my design. The subwoofer stand is another design that I went anal on. Basically, it's RealTraps Soffit like the plant stand on the right that has 2" oak top/bottom/sides all glued togther. The anal part was stuffing 3" of memory foam in a 1.5" spacing on the suffit end caps, all to obsorb more vibration. Of Course Audiopoint cones at the base. You would like the Lorelei's as they make this small room sound like a concert hall. Room treatment along with power conditioning probably had a lot to do with it also. All those little things add up in the end,,,, basically.  

Well you asked for pictures and now you know I live like a slob,,, but I'm tuned to the gills!  

Robin

ps, got a lot of my stuff right here at AudioCircle with Lonewolfny getting my library started. My heart will always be here but the ears stay with me. LOL

[ajzepp]

Wow, that set-up rocks! Those Lorelei's are sharp looking, too! I had a few conversations with Klaus and was very close to pulling the trigger on those babies myself....Klaus is a trip, and I know he puts out some real quality gear 

You're obviously way ahead of me in terms of room tuning and power conditioning....I haven't even heard of half that stuff lol

Have you played around with the Lors in phantom center mode? I keep going back and forth about whether I want to incorporate a center channel again. I know the one I'd get to match my system is a very good speaker, but I've been a phantom center guy for like four years now, ever since I dabbled with Maggies.

What does Bandit think of all this? 

[satfrat]

Usually when I listen to music, the front Usher gets shut down but I keep the back one on. I just love the soundstage that the front Lorelei's throw out. But then again when I'm listening to a concert that recorded in DD-EX, all 6 are shining for a solid soundstage. Most all of my library listening comes from Dolby Pro Logic 2x for the 6.1 and it's then that I shut the front center off. Bandit won't mind it all. he's got a bed right next to my chair.

You really don't need a center but I watch a lot of sports and I like the talk up front with me being surrounded by the crowd. w/o a center, you don't get that split. A good example of what the center speaker will do for you is listen to the music at the end of a good DVD movie that's in Dolby Digital or DTS. That sound is specifically recorded for 6.1 or 7.1 systems. W/O the center, you lose the fullness and separation that having that center provides. It really all depends on the way the sound is recorded.


Robin

[ajzepp]

I'm definitely going to have to at least try it, I think. The Atlanta DeVore dealer is a friend of mine, so I'm sure he'll let me mess around with one. I have to admit my Outlaw pre/pro does a respectable job with multichannel stuff, so I can certainly see the appeal.

[satfrat]

The biggest problem with centers is they don't have the same sonic signature as your mains, unless of course you have 3 identical speakers up front which is actually the ideal situation. I tried 3 sets of centers before Byteme turned me onto the Usher X-616 which uses the same size driver (but not the same driver) as the Lorelei. It's not the same but it's close plus the fact that it's a very good speaker in itself. To really hear what I was talking about in my last post, it's essential that all 3 front speakers sound good together or your better off with no center at all. I'm really only talking about the music part of it, the sonic signature isn't as important with simple TV surround. It really all boils down to what you want in a home theater and most folks want that center but theres some that just don't.

[JLM]

Sorry I can't see your images.

I have a 13 ft x 21 ft x 8 ft (actual dimensions are nearly the ideal 1 x 1.612 x 2.612 ratio) man cave with the front dedicated to audio and the back to my office.  The front has six GIK 244 panels standing on edge off the floor (two in the front corners, two at front wall first reflection points, and two at side wall first reflection points).  The room is fully insulated with the three cryo'd hospital grade receptacles each on their own 12 gauge/20 amp circuit and grounded together (independent of the rest of the house).  The house and all appliances are 2 years old, the service to the house is underground with its own transformer.  Fortunately most of cost of the room was built into the cost of the house (12 gauge/20 amp circuits and insulated floors/ceilings were a builder standard and the electrical work was flat bid) with the only additional cost being the staggered double stud walls and cryo'd hospital grade receptacles (about $200 total).  This was definitely a case of more put into planning than construction.

My commissioned single driver Bob Brines FTA-2000 speakers (rated in-room flat to 30 Hz, but lots of beaming from the 8 inch whizzerless cone that are ear height) are in a nearfield setup (ala Cardias, a 68 inch equalateral triangle well away from walls).  Note that the speakers are transmission line designs, so they should be very room friendly in terms of bass loading.  Under these conditions room issues are minimal, so the advantages of the GIK panels are subtle.  Playing around with panel locations has done more to expand the soundstage width/depth than anything else.

Frankly this is exactly what I was hoping for (that the room/set-up didn't need much help, but that the panels weren't a total waste of money).  I appreciate the GIK prices too, especially under these circumstances.  I just got a Behringer DEQ2496 and matching microphone so I'll be playing with the room some more, although the main reason for it is to replace the speakers' baffle step/zobel circuit.  This will provide the most direct connection between monoblocks and driver and move the EQ to the digital realm.

Unlike Satfrat, this man-cave is rather sparsely furnished.  The front (audio) half has only equipment, chair, side table, and five pictures (sorry don't know how to post images and I'm a computer dummy).  The back half has three tall bookcases (for diffusion), desk with PC, drafting table, short file cabinet, another chair, and more artwork.

[Glenn K]

ajzepp,

I wanted to this opportunity to thank you for not only the purchase, but for taking the time to post this review AND PICTURES!! It is word of mouth that really keeps us on the "path of success" .

Keep myself and Bryan posted on your room and like always if you have any questions please to not hesitate to contact us right away.


Glenn

[ajzepp]

Thanks Glenn   And trust me, I haven't shut up about these panels since yesterday and don't plan to do so anytime soon

BTW, I lightened up the pics in case anyone wants to see a little more detail...sorry they were so dark!

Lastly, this is going to sound really silly, but I was BLOWN AWAY by Survivor tonight. I had recorded yesterday's show and just finished watching it. There is so much more detail to the audio on this program, not to mention some of the really cool drum beats and music, I can't believe it. The whole show just came to life, and it really was as if I were right there with the contestants. Everything from the squishing of the mud, to the splashing of the water and the rain, to the crackle of the fire....really cool!

Last night I watched "Chasing Amy", which is not a movie I'd ever consider demo material, and it was relatively low budget, but it sounded great!

This is really a revelation to me, though I supposed I've been active in these forums long enough where it SHOULDN'T have been. But until you actually treat your room, you just can't appreciate how many problems there really are! 

[ajzepp]

Okay, one more thing I'm really noticing here...

One of my main irritations with music is when a particular passage gets very complicated in terms of all that's going on. I've never really known whether it was the recording, or the gear, or the speakers....but apparently it's the damn room!  The separation among the various instruments and the vocals is FINALLY present, and the imaging allows me to place them in space much more easily than I ever could before. 

 

[TONEPUB]

I have to say that the GIK panels and especially the big bass traps
have been the biggest improvement for the money that I've ever
experienced!

Definitely great stuff....