[macrojack]

I see these discussions as being broader than just one brand. The original poster needed an example so he chose one and its name was Lamm. Mine was Wilson. It isn't really about a particular brand, however. I think it is about pricing - what drives it and what sustains it.
Defense of the brand in the example misses the point.

[miklorsmith]

I thought it was about "what's in the box".

[BrianM]

Because it never leads anywhere productive and always ends the same way...

You know, this attitude is no better than the one you're criticizing.  Who the heck are you to define what is and isn't a productive discussion?  If it interests me and makes me think, it's productive.

[aerius]

Expensive, inexpensive, neither is really the issue. What I think is being asked is simple enough. Is this product priced according to parts cost, etc. or is the price more of a test to see what the market will bear?

The latter.  I've seen the insides of a Lamm and there's nothing in there to justify a $30k cost.  It sounds damn good, but not $30k good.  There's lots of amps from Wyetech Labs, Coincident, Wavelength Audio and others which will easily match it for 1/3 of the price or less.

[BrianM]

Q: What if someone came up with the greatest amp circuit ever.  What would that be worth?

No, the question is, what would you decide to charge for it, and how would you arrive at that price.

A: Whatever the inventor thinks it is.

No, whatever someone will pay.  Which only goes so far, because then it's a question of, how many do you want to sell?

There is intellectual intangible goods being traded here.  You cannot look at the material parts and base the price just on that.  There is a bit of art in there.

This is undoubtedly true.  I just wonder if the people at (say) Lamm designed their amp first and then stuck a price tag on it, or kind of set out to build a $30k amp.

Why is this interesting? Because of the arguably diminishing returns in amplification quality (after a price much lower than $30,000), and the relative lack of new breakthroughs in amplification technology (as far as I'm aware) behind the skyrocketing price of certain amps in recent decades.

[acresm22]

Does Lamm market?  I don't consistently read the print mags, so I don't know.

Owning the baby Lamm preamp, I'll testify they know what they're doing.  Build quality and sound are both killer.

Yes, Lamm markets when they choose their price points. I'm sure its very good gear...top quality parts, exemplary fit and finish, etc. But there is no way to explain the high prices in terms of materials and R/D...its all about positioning the product at a price level where it gets noticed, both by the audio press and by that group of potential buyers.

[ecramer]

I always wonder when i see a piece of audio equipment for a rather large price just what the hell they have in the box to make it worth that much? The other problem i have is i could care less if they built the amp in a milk crate as long as the sound was killer, so im not inclined to pay a lot of money for a fancy case example NL Reference Amplifier throw the guts in a black box with a nice blue led to let me know its on and give me a price


 

[sts9fan]

A: Whatever the inventor thinks it is.

No, whatever someone will pay.  Which only goes so far, because then it's a question of, how many do you want to sell?

So you don't think what the inventor thinks its worth is the max he thinks someone wil pay?  You just worded it differently.

[macrojack]

Is "what's in the box?" the force in question or does some other influence come into play?

I think the industry has been taught by consumers to charge ever more for their goods. We have shown them that we believe more money equals better. So they charge more money, we pay it gleefully and then we add the object to our shrine.

People object to this topic because it threatens to undermine the lie we are telling ourselves about how this stuff matters and how it has intrinsic value. We obsess and objectify what are, in essence, appliances.
They are fun and they certainly play an important role in my home but so does the cookstove.

When audio obsession becomes a religion, it is time for a reality check. Or a new preamp.

[BrianM]

So you don't think what the inventor thinks its worth is the max he thinks someone wil pay?

No, I don't think that.

[sts9fan]

Well I disagree. Depends on the market.  For these high priced items they push it to the ceiling.  Lamm cannot push it much higher because they do not have little Asian woman winding their caps like Kondo.

[miklorsmith]

Hmmm . . . I'm with George.  Have fun kids!

[nathanm]

Much as we might like to think so, they are not works of art -- they are appliances.

I fully agree.  In fact, the approach I would recommend for one with $30,000 to spend is to use $1000 of it to get a perfectly nice, reasonably priced amplifier and use the rest towards buying fine art, like a few dozen authentic AudioCircle t-shirts for example.  That's not merely a cheap consumer good, it's just plain GOOD.  Not only will this beautiful art improve your life but also the lives of anyone who looks at your chest.  And even though your dollars are going towards the prevention of malnutrition for artists you are also promoting yourself as a person of impressive taste who very well COULD own a $30,000 amplifier, judging by the shirt alone!  People will look at your shirt and think,

"AudioCirlce...cripes I heard of that message board!  The people on there are incredibly cool, they own some of the finest equipment money can buy for jamming to music, equipment the likes of which you and I could never afford! But my god, would you look at that shirt, it's a beauty!"

[BrianM]

Hmmm . . . I'm with George.  Have fun kids!

(just make sure you say something snobbish on your way out)

[samplesj]

Is "what's in the box?" the force in question or does some other influence come into play?

I think the industry has been taught by consumers to charge ever more for their goods. We have shown them that we believe more money equals better. So they charge more money, we pay it gleefully and then we add the object to our shrine.

People object to this topic because it threatens to undermine the lie we are telling ourselves about how this stuff matters and how it has intrinsic value. We obsess and objectify what are, in essence, appliances.
.....

People object to the "What's in the box?" question because it invariable leads to people focusing JUST on the parts cost.  All of the R & D, marketing, and distribution costs are ignored and we focus in on just the parts vs the price.

Sure we can say there isn't 30k worth of parts in that Lamm amp, but why does that matter?  There is so much more to it than just parts.  For that matter if you truely are focusing on parts vs price then why weren't you screaming bloody murder when we had amps being sold for $500 that was a modded reboxed $30 amp?

[2bigears]

  this amp is for the rich boys.like Madonna,it's all marketing,not sure about the art thing.sure like to hear on though!!!! will never buy one.

[sts9fan]

I would say most big ticket/big name HifFi is a Schroeder's cat deally.  As long as you don't open the box the amp is filled with the most valuable parts imaginable and WELL worth it.  Just don't open the box your you may find a dead cat. 

[95bcwh]

The answer is:

Supply and Demand !!

[macrojack]

samplesj - makes a valid point about the parts list being only part of the cost. Once upon a time it was believed that the retail price should be approximately 5 times the cost of parts. This allowed for the above mentioned overhead and the dealer margin of, typically 40%. Following that formula backwards we can say that parts should represent about 1/3 of wholesale. Factory direct companies fall somewhere in between because they assume costs that the traditional manufacturer placed on dealers.
I submit that in today's marketplace, volume is down for most manufacturers and prices have shot up. Other manufacturers whose volume has remained stable or expanded, have likewise raised their prices exponentially because the sales climate invited such a move.
The onus is on the gullible customer, not the greedy manufacturer. We are the ones, through our complicity, who have created this exploitive pricing structure.

Supply and demand is not an incorruptible system. In our case, it has been artificially modified.

[arthurs]

How many times are we going to explore this type of topic?