[macrojack]

Uh Oh! Maybe I picked a bad example for my analogy. I don't drink.

[Scott F.]

Not always. Gas prices are completely counter-intuitive to the supply and demand rule.

When there is a gas shortage, gas prices shoot up.  How is that counter-intuitive?

Hang on for a second. Now I might have the wrong perception of the law of supply and demand. Isn't it (essentially) "as demand goes up, the price comes down"?

If that is the case, why is it, in the summer when demands for gas are high, the price spikes? Then during the winter when demand is low, the price is low? You are likely to come back with the statement that during the summer that the supplies can't keep up with the demand. I contend that the oil producers keep their supplies limited even though they have the ability to produce more just so they can artificially inflate the price of gas so they can take excessive profits. All you have to do is listen to the news to see how OPEC regulates what comes out of the oils fields. The product is available, the oil companies simply sit on it to bolster prices. Hence my statement, gasoline is counter-intuitive to the laws of supply and demand.



Jeff, I realize the drivers and crossovers are different. I was hoping it might pacify some peoples need to have a knock of that they could claim is as good or better than the real thing. 

[samplesj]

For whatever reason, a mythology arises surrounding certain products. Traditionally this occurs at the hands of the reviewing establishment. In recent years there has been a good bit of diffusion applied because of an increase in the number of review sources and an explosion of the number of product sources.
There is a Sutter's Mill Effect present in audio manufacturing because you just never know when you might strike it rich. Dreams abound. Maybe I can design the next Wilson.

But the underlying reality is that the game is relatively closed. The established manufacturers have an enormous edge because of the blue chip status afforded by name recognition and lingering reputation.

...

Yes, they make a quality product. So does Aerial. Yes, they use first rate materials. So does Vandersteen. Yes, they are made in USA. So is Zu. Yes. Yes. Yes.

But are they better than these other speakers? That's always subjective. People have to like them better for them to be better. There is no absolute sound. I submit that people buy Wilson because they perceive them to be better. And a good bit of that perception is fed by the Chivas Regal model. Wilson is wrapped in gimmick just like Bose. The two companies have much more in common than you elitist Wilson owners could ever bring yourselves to acknowledge. The best is seldom the best known.

And so the truth comes out.  I'd hoped you weren't doing this as a marketing stunt and tried my best to pretend I didn't see any hints of it and it was just my cynicism making it look that way (innocent until proven guilty and all that).  You've made your Zu pronouncement a few posts back so go ahead and admit this thread was NEVER about Wilson at all.

"Mythology around certain products" and not better just "wrapped in gimmick".  Oh the poor Wilson owners.  Listen here is your voice from the wilderness showing you the better way.  Just look for the "Zu, Yes, Yes, Yes" bit.  Even the choice of phrasing is telling.  Mythology implies that its all pretend.  Have you actually heard a watt puppy to make the comment that it isn't better and that its reputation is mythic vs REAL? 

Or maybe I should ask WHICH product you are talking about has a mythology (Wilson or Zu)? 

"The best is seldom the best known."  Boy that is a nice quote.  Man, you've never heard of Zu?  Oh, that means that are the top dog then.

Is it really a closed review market to newcomers as you suggest (and have before) or is it rather that fear of the Zu faithful gathering a lynching mob that has limited reviews (especially with measurements).   Look at what happened to SoundStage when they published measurements.

"Dreams abound", just whose get rich quick dreams are we talking about?  See that is the other reason Zu doesn't get traction on public message boards.  Any company that offers kickback to owners for pulling in new customers automatically gets its owners posts ignored by most people.  Even if you never sell a single speaker, you've been bought.  Not only is it owner pride now, but also owner greed that forces an extremely positive review.  Between the two of those how can we trust anything a Zu owner posts?

[macrojack]

When there are many buyers wanting to buy one item, the price is forced up. When there are many products for sale and only one buyer, he is in a position to force the price down.
When supply is high. price suffers. When demand exceeds supply, the price increases.

Intuitive or not, that is what happens.

Wilson has created a self-fulfilling prophecy by creating the illusion that their product exists at an isolated and exalted level. Enough buyers have fallen for the story to have established a market reality. Even though Wilson speakers are hardly scarce, audio buyers have come to believe they are special.

Brittany Spears enjoys a similar position. Her fans insist she is special too.

[Daygloworange]

Not always. Gas prices are completely counter-intuitive to the supply and demand rule.

When there is a gas shortage, gas prices shoot up.  How is that counter-intuitive?

That's not in a open, competitive market. OPEC petroleum producers regularly stop producing oil to artificially swing the supply/demand pendulum. Let's not turn the OPEC example into a political debate....

Do the normal laws of supply and demand impact the pricing of Wilson Watt Puppy Speakers?  Yes, because people want the speakers and there is limited production you can assume that supply and demand drives the pricing.  However, I think the basis of this thread was aimed toward why Wilson Watt Puppy Speakers are so expensive in a world full of speaker choices?

1. Some people will purchase the speakers because they believe the speakers are fairly priced for the sound they produce and for the quality of their finish.
2. Prestige factor - Wilson has developed a reputation for selling high-end speakers.  People that don't know anything about audio and have plenty of money can buy Wilson Watt Puppies.  The speakers will sound good and they will fill the niche of every purchase they make - high end!

Give Wilson credit because they have been successful building a reputation for producing quality, high-end speakers.  What Wilson charges for them is predicated mostly on what the market is willing to pay.  Probably the best market to compare high-end audio products to would be the diamond market.  Diamonds have a reputation for value but the real value is in the eye of the beholder.  Don't you think speakers fit the same definition?

Great post Bigfish.

The supply/demand model somewhat applies to Wilson because they produce in limited numbers. However, it is still limited to what the market will bear because other's are producing speakers that are comparable on a price/performance ratio.

Diamonds are rare, gold is rare. Therefore the market for those are non competitive.

Wilson speakers are perhaps rare, but good sounding speakers are not. Although they are a somewhat exclusive brand, they are still in a competitive market.

Cheers

[macrojack]

samplesj - Are you stalking me? You've anticipated that the word Zu might appear in one of my posts and , by god, you were ready for that moment.
Well, you can relax, cowboy. I could have said Omega in the same space. Vandersteen, Zu and Aerial were listed because I have owned all of them. I have not owned Wilson. I have sold them, however, and I could have bought them on accommodation and sold them to one of the many Wilson aspirants at a profit but I let the opportunity pass because I didn't like them and didn't want them. I bought a used pair of Avalon Eclipses at the time instead. Be sure to put that in your dossier.

All of this is about perception. I think there is an enormous disconnect between the price of Wilson and what they deliver. I think that about Red Wine Audio too. But I think Red Wine sells a glitz free, no pretense, ordinary black box that delivers in spades. I think they are genuinely innovative and that the products perform at the highest level for very reasonable prices. Opposite sides of the same coin.

I do not accept bribes. All of my activities are very independent. I have strong beliefs and strong ideals.

[contrarian]

Hey macrojack,

Is this post really about economics, or is it a thinly veiled statement on other peoples value system?  You know, fascism comes in many flavors.  Please don't assume your value system is right for me.  Why don't you constructively demonstrate your enlightened choices instead of degrading other people's choices?

[samplesj]

samplesj - Are you stalking me?

No, the original post header had NOTHING to do with Zu.  The first post did in fact mention a Prius so I was interested because of that.  Do I need to justify reading/posting to ANY thread in this forum now?

I do not accept bribes. All of my activities are very independent. I have strong beliefs and strong ideals.

I honestly don't know the answer to this and cannot find any mention of it on their site.  Did you have to seek out permission from Zu to become a "Friend of Zu" or is it automatic with purchase?

If in fact you have to ASK then please try to justify how can it not be asking for a bribe/kickback/commission (depending on how offensive you want the wording to be)?

I can't imagine it being automatic since I'd think they'd want to know what type of gear and what type of room is being used to showcase tem, but if it is automatic then I apologize for suggesting that you personally were looking for a kickback.

[Scott F.]

Not always. Gas prices are completely counter-intuitive to the supply and demand rule.

When there is a gas shortage, gas prices shoot up.  How is that counter-intuitive?

That's not in a open, competitive market. OPEC petroleum producers regularly stop producing oil to artificially swing the supply/demand pendulum. Let's not turn the OPEC example into a political debate....

Never was intended to be a political debate. All I'm doing is justifying my statement that gas pricing doesn't meet the laws of supply and demand....in which we both agree. 

[macrojack]

My enlightened choices  - let's see -- I have pursued a macrobiotic lifestyle with varying degrees of dedication for about 25 years. I drive old cars because I think that cars are a loser investment. I try to keep myself healthy so as to avoid the health insurance ripoff. I think a lit cigarette is a badge of stupidity so I don't smoke. I live in a place where natural disasters are very unlikely. I try to provide my boys with interests that supercede modern fashion trends. I believe strongly in sustainable energy production and organic food production. My political position in a nutshell is: I can't keep it from happening but I might be able to keep it from happening to me. I think religion is personal and individual and should be private. I have none.

I like speakers without crossovers and I am very convinced about high efficiency speakers and battery power.
I still like having the vinyl option in my home but resort to using it on an irregular basis. My son uses the turntable more than I do. Thoughts lately have moved me closer to a computer based system. I am considering selling off my tuners and using a computer (probably laptop) as a source for CD, DVD, music bank, and radio. Isabella and 30.2 upgrade are probably in my future. As are the Zu Presence.

I have never entered the stock market because I feel very unenlightened about it. My investments have been in real estate and have worked out well.

I bought an Akita because they don't bark, don't eat much given their size and don't require much exercise. Tokie is intelligent, calm and fun. A great companion and a very enlightened acquisition. Shedding does not really occur on a regular basis but when he blows his coat twice a year it is a cataclysmic event.

Any questions?

[95bcwh]

Scott, I see your point now, and understand where the confusion comes in. Let me explain the curves you saw in this page:


The demand curve is trending downwards because the higher the price, the less the consumer will demand.
The supply curve is trending upwards because the higher the price, the more producer will supply the good to the market.
In short, these curves show the "response" of buyer and seller due to the change in price of a particular product. So the curves depicted a "price-driven" behaviour.

Now the shape of the two curves you saw in that picture is applicable in a fully competitive market where the supplier can enter the market and cope with the demand instantly. In reality, the gas market is not as responsive, i.e. when demands goes up, the sellers are not able (or they don't want to) to increase their production to cope with the demand. So in such a market where the supply is very rigid and non-responsive, the supply curve is almost "VERTICAL"  see this 2nd diagram here:


So when people say "demand has increased", there're two ways to explain it (and they mean different things):
(1)If the demand increases because the price is lower - for example the demand increases for iPhone because Apple slashes price, then the demand is in response to the price change and you are moving down the demand curve.
(2)If the demand increases, because more people need it, e.g. outbreak of disease, people need one particular medicine to cure, then you are SHIFTING the whole demand curve upward and to the right. (exactly opposite to what the 2nd diagram above shown, i.e. instead of shifting from D1 to D2, it shifts from D2 to D1). And if the original price of goods is at P2, shifting the demand curves up will move the intersection to P1, i.e. resulting in higher price.

There's nothing wrong with the law of supply and demand, the theory has existed since human started trading with each other. It doesn't matter what kind of market you're in, be it a monopoly, oligopoly, monopolistic, perfect competition or etc etc... it's all "supply and demand". Whatever factors you guys were talking about, e.g. "sellers price-fixing, OPEC quota, different people have different perceived values of what a particular good is worth, and etc etc...", they all go into affecting the supply/demand curves (you can move up or down the curves, or you can shift the curves to different locations entirely). At the end, the price is determined by the intersection of the two curves.

In short, everything is driven by supply and demand. If you disagree that's because your assumption of the "supply and demand" theory is different from those who developed and taught such theories at college.

Sorry..I am in guilt of jumping off the topic too much. The virtue of having a PhD degree in applied economics means that I am 'naturally' attracted to such discussion. I shall stick to audio from now on.

Hang on for a second. Now I might have the wrong perception of the law of supply and demand. Isn't it (essentially) "as demand goes up, the price comes down"?

[chadh]

Come on now.  This has nothing to do with any effort on Macrojack's part to promote Zu.  Honestly, Macrojack gets a lot of criticism on this sort of issue, but I've yet to have any sense that it is merited.   I for one believe him to be a completely honorable participant in these discussions, and feel he should be treated as such until there's some GOOD reason to believe otherwise.

This thread, like so many others in which Macrojack participates, simply reflects his dismay at the stupidity of consumers other than himself, while bristling at the evils of corporations that deliver precisely those things that stupid consumers want and subsequently generate significant profits.  Macrojack is a self appointed guardian of our community.  He seethes to see the rest of us falling prey to the evils of agencies like Wilson, agencies that have the nerve to present us with the opportunity to purchase something that we think we want, when Macrojack knows that we really don't (or at least, really shouldn't) want it at all. 

The sooner that Wilson owners realize that they are wrong, that Wilson has nothing to offer them, and that Macrojack should be determining all their purchases, the sooner Macrojack will be able to rest easy, knowing that so many have been saved from the imprisonment of their own preferences.

Chad

[macrojack]

Thank You, Chadh. I can't begin to tell you the relief I feel in finally being recognized for my efforts. It's been a lonely crusade.

[contrarian]

My enlightened choices  - let's see -- I have pursued a macrobiotic lifestyle with varying degrees of dedication for about 25 years. I drive old cars because I think that cars are a loser investment. I try to keep myself healthy so as to avoid the health insurance ripoff. I think a lit cigarette is a badge of stupidity so I don't smoke. I live in a place where natural disasters are very unlikely. I try to provide my boys with interests that supercede modern fashion trends. I believe strongly in sustainable energy production and organic food production. My political position in a nutshell is: I can't keep it from happening but I might be able to keep it from happening to me. I think religion is personal and individual and should be private. I have none.

I like speakers without crossovers and I am very convinced about high efficiency speakers and battery power.
I still like having the vinyl option in my home but resort to using it on an irregular basis. My son uses the turntable more than I do. Thoughts lately have moved me closer to a computer based system. I am considering selling off my tuners and using a computer (probably laptop) as a source for CD, DVD, music bank, and radio. Isabella and 30.2 upgrade are probably in my future. As are the Zu Presence.

I have never entered the stock market because I feel very unenlightened about it. My investments have been in real estate and have worked out well.

I bought an Akita because they don't bark, don't eat much given their size and don't require much exercise. Tokie is intelligent, calm and fun. A great companion and a very enlightened acquisition. Shedding does not really occur on a regular basis but when he blows his coat twice a year it is a cataclysmic event.

Any questions?

Actually, I find that interesting and infinitely more worthwhile.  Thanks for sharing.

[2bigears]

  Let's say you have 1 year old speakers and of course they are in as new condition.you have 3 sets,Vandy 5A's,Watt Pup 8's and Zu Defs.you have them for sale @ 1/2 price.which speaker would sell first,this is the real acid test.[marketing rules]

[mcullinan]

now I've never heard the Wilson watt 8, are these speakers significantly better than any other speaker out there? Can you find an equivalent sound ability at a quarter of the price? I know sound is subjective, but there are always certain qualities that give a speaker itsgreat status.
Just curious to responses.
mike

[TONEPUB]

I don't own Zu speakers, nor do they advertise in our magazine.

I personally gave the Druids an excellent review about a year ago
and thought they were a great speaker for the money.  Still do.

No conspiracy here....

And as far as the newcomers getting traction, I think that most of them
have done pretty well.  The biggest agony at who to give coverage to
and who not is wondering if the "new guy" will be in business five years
from now.

I always hate to be the guy that suggested the amp (or whatever) from
the new guy and then three years later when he's not in business everyone
is mad because we made the call.

It's one of those deals where you need the job to get the experience and
vice versa, so we keep trying.

When I worked at the absolute sound almost four years ago, I wanted to
review the ModWright 9.0 preamp, but they wouldn't go for it because Dan
was too new for them.  Now that his business has grown, he's going to be
in the Dec issue.  Of course the problem always is to keep eating during
the time that everyone decides that you are valid.

Guys like Wilson have paid their dues and they make an excellent product.

I find it hard to believe that everyone that has bought a Wilson product is
a deluded idiot because they wouldn't rather have a pair of Zu speakers
or something else less expensive.

I am very curious as to how our pal Macrojack was going
to get a set of watt puppies at accomodation pricing.  Wilson is very strict on
discounts and does not give reviewers accomodation pricing on anything other
than Sophias.  Their head of sales, John Giolas told me that in person.

I also know a couple of Wilson dealers and you have to make a pretty substantial
investment to buy in to the Wilson line.  You can't just sign up without a major
storefront, buy one pair of speakers at cost and call yourself a dealer.

In the end, there is nothing wrong with liking what you like.

If you want to eat brown rice and drive a cheap car that's fine.
I drive a cheap car so I can afford audio
as well.  But that doesn't mean it's the answer for all of us and the
smugness that goes along with incinuating that anyone who buys things
that you don't like is pretty insulting.

[zybar]

Nice post Jeff.

George

[Double Ugly]

Nice post Jeff.

George

Yep, you summed things up rather nicely.

[Bigfish]

I don't own Zu speakers, nor do they advertise in our magazine.

I personally gave the Druids an excellent review about a year ago
and thought they were a great speaker for the money.  Still do.

No conspiracy here....

And as far as the newcomers getting traction, I think that most of them
have done pretty well.  The biggest agony at who to give coverage to
and who not is wondering if the "new guy" will be in business five years
from now.

I always hate to be the guy that suggested the amp (or whatever) from
the new guy and then three years later when he's not in business everyone
is mad because we made the call.

It's one of those deals where you need the job to get the experience and
vice versa, so we keep trying.

When I worked at the absolute sound almost four years ago, I wanted to
review the ModWright 9.0 preamp, but they wouldn't go for it because Dan
was too new for them.  Now that his business has grown, he's going to be
in the Dec issue.  Of course the problem always is to keep eating during
the time that everyone decides that you are valid.

Guys like Wilson have paid their dues and they make an excellent product.

I find it hard to believe that everyone that has bought a Wilson product is
a deluded idiot because they wouldn't rather have a pair of Zu speakers
or something else less expensive.

I am very curious as to how our pal Macrojack was going
to get a set of watt puppies at accomodation pricing.  Wilson is very strict on
discounts and does not give reviewers accomodation pricing on anything other
than Sophias.  Their head of sales, John Giolas told me that in person.

I also know a couple of Wilson dealers and you have to make a pretty substantial
investment to buy in to the Wilson line.  You can't just sign up without a major
storefront, buy one pair of speakers at cost and call yourself a dealer.

In the end, there is nothing wrong with liking what you like.

If you want to eat brown rice and drive a cheap car that's fine.
I drive a cheap car so I can afford audio
as well.  But that doesn't mean it's the answer for all of us and the
smugness that goes along with incinuating that anyone who buys things
that you don't like is pretty insulting.

Jeff:

I and I am certain many others are envious of the equipment and speakers you able to audition.  This thread probably should not have questioned the price and value of Wilson Speakers.  I personally think something is worth the price charged if people are willing to pay it.  I cannot afford Watt Puppies and if I could I don't know I would buy them.  They would certainly be on a list of speakers I would want to audition along with Von Schweikert, Vandy 5As and the full monty SP Tech. Revelations.

The point you make in your post is that there are probably some excellent products out there producted from companies who have not established reputations.  These products may produce excellent sound and are priced lower than the recognized brands but the buyer is also assuming more risk with the purchase.  If you purchase a pair of Wilson Speakers you have to pay Wilson's Price, but should you want to sell them in a year you can probably do so for a good price.  If you try to sell a pair of speakers produced from a speaker manufacturer trying to build a reputation, or one that is constantly revamping their designs, good luck selling them for a decent price (compared to the purchase price).  Certainly your % return will be much lower than with a name brand speaker.

I certainly do not think people who purchase Wilson Speakers are foolish.  I do envy them for having the money to afford them!

Ken