[macrojack]

Why does a pair of these speakers cost more than a Toyota Prius?

[sts9fan]

A) Because people will pay it.
B) Because it is an example of the COST being the product.  If you price something really high there is preserved value and superiority.
C) they sound nice

[loki1957]

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1190250210&read&3&4&

[samplesj]

Why does a pair of these speakers cost more than a Toyota Prius?

Who decides how much is too much? 

Didn't you have over 10k in your previous speakers?  So 28k is too much but 10k isn't?

What is the point of this whole question?  It costs what it costs and if you don't like that then either try to talk a dealer down or move on to the next speaker.

[macrojack]

The point is the cost of high end audio. Doesn't it make you wonder about pricing when the consider this comparison? I imagine more money was used to develop the Prius than has been spent on all loudspeaker research combined over the last 50 years.

However, be assured that I feel the full weight of your stinging rebuke. Being an individual who must consider practicality over capricious acquisition, I would never aspire to own Wilson speakers as I feel more performance can be had for less money.

I chose Wilson for this comparison because I feel they are among the worst offenders in the area of pricing.
Naturally, it is entirely up to the consumer how he spends his money. Mine is not the first, nor will it be the last, posting on this site, to invite musing. Just consider it conversation and withhold the personal challenges.
It's just chat.

sts9fan - I think your point B was well stated and likely very true.

[TONEPUB]

Watt Puppy 8's cost more than a Prius for a few reasons:

A.  The typical profit structure in the high end is much higher than it is for automobiles.
     i.e. most high end audio products have a 30-40% profit at the retail end.  Most car
     dealers are lucky to make 10% on a car.

B.  Wilson is not as large of a company as TOYOTA, therfore their R&D, materials cost
     and labor cost are much higher than TOYOTA

C.  Wilson is a specialty mfr., TOYOTA is a mass market mfr.  You are comparing
     Vandersteen to Ferrari here

D.  A lot of the cost of the Watt Puppy is in the cabinet construction and hand assembly.
     Wilson's composite materials that they use eats up a lot of machining time.  It's like
     machining titanium instead of aluminum.  Wilson also takes great care to hand match
     every component to .1% tolerance as well as the drivers.  This way they also have
     carefully matched replacement drivers should you need a replacement tweeter 10
     years from now.

E.  Why does a replacement battery set for a Prius cost 8000 dollars?  A battery for my laptop
     only costs 100?  Why does the transmission in a Prius cost 6500 when a new trans for
     my 325i only cost 1500?  I know a lot of people that have owned their Prius's for a couple
     of years and the repair bills have been horrendous.  I know people that have owned Wilson
     speakers for ten years with no issues.

F.   Having more than one family member in the car business (three of them work for TOYOTA)
     it's common knowledge in the industry that Toyota built the Prius as a loss leader to build
     brand share in the hybrid market, which I applaud them for, but a Prius should really cost about
     45k.  Because Toyota is such a huge company that sells millions of Camry's every year, they
     can afford to take the hit.

G.  When you buy a pair of Watt Puppies, your Wilson dealer will come out and spend a day or
     two setting up your speakers so that you are happy with them.  You don't get that with a Prius.
     You don't even get that with a Porsche!

So in the end, most of the gear in the high end is like buying a Ferrari or Aston Martin.  None of these guys make this stuff in huge enough scale to offer it cheap.  That's the way it has always been.  Considering almost all products in the high end have a similar markup structure built in to them, it goes up the scale pretty linearly. 

And for what it's worth, I don't own Wilson speakers, nor do they advertise in my magazine.  But I do know that they build an excellent product to extremely high standards and they do a better job with customer and dealer service/support than almost anyone in the industry.  That costs money.

I've known a number of people that own Wilson and I have never heard them complain that they were ripped off with their purchase.

Don't know what else to tell you there....

[Mike Dzurko]

A) Because people will pay it.
B) Because it is an example of the COST being the product.  If you price something really high there is preserved value and superiority.
C) they sound nice

Well said, and I'll add D) DGM (Darn good marketing)  When somebody with a lot of extra dough opens up say, Stereophile, it won't take long to see who some of the Big Dogs are (at least perceived big dogs)

[sts9fan]

You also have to understand that your Prius examples is not a good one.  Where are the Prius manufactured?  How many are they selling?  What is the profit margin?  Ecomony of scale.  Plus Toyota has a huge infrastructure.  

[zybar]

Why does a pair of these speakers cost more than a Toyota Prius?

Macrojack,

Why should we care?

What relevance does that really have in the grand scheme of things?

You are also comparing a high volume product with a small niche product. 

Doesn't appear to remotely be an apples to apples comparison or provide much value.

George

[Mike B.]

Wilson has done a great job of positioning themselves in the high end market IMO. You will not find a store featuring them next to a Wal-Mart if you get my point.

[loki1957]

I think it's post's like this that we have another thread going about is The High End dead. I think it's great that there are companies that can R and D and build products of any kind that are the best they know how to build. Be it audio, autos, watches, bicycles, what ever.

[samplesj]

E.  Why does a replacement battery set for a Prius cost 8000 dollars?  A battery for my laptop
     only costs 100?  Why does the transmission in a Prius cost 6500 when a new trans for
     my 325i only cost 1500?  I know a lot of people that have owned their Prius's for a couple
     of years and the repair bills have been horrendous.  I know people that have owned Wilson
     speakers for ten years with no issues.

I actually have 2 priuii (plural of prius?) and haven't had ANY real issues.  Both a first us generation sedan and a second us generation hatchback [this is the current model] (actually 2nd and 3rd gen globally) The ONLY issue I had is that my son left his door open on my older prius and killed the normal car battery.  Toyota replaced it totally free of charge (no service cost even) after the second time they had to send someone to jump us off for FREE and it looks like that was a known issue because they replaced it with a larger 12v battery.  Please note this is NOT the actual hybrid batteries, but rather the starter battery that we all have in our cars.

The why does this cost X is totally apples to oranges.  The prius battery set is just as you said a SET.  It is very unlikely to all go out at once.  Once you scale up the power storage per battery * number of batteries and also take into accound that its NiMH vs LiOn is it that different cost wise?  The prius transmission is a planetary gear CVT arrangement.  It is NOT a normal geared transmision.  You cannot compare a CVT to a normal auto transmission on terms of cost.

[macrojack]

How much for a Yamaha 7 foot grand piano? That's probably more apples to apples and there is a damn sight more craftsmanship and materials in it than in the WP8.
And if the huge company argument holds up, then we should suppose that Sony can deliver a lot more speaker for your dollar than Wilson just because of wherewithall and scale. No?

[sts9fan]

Macrojack,

Why should we care?

What relevance does that really have in the grand scheme of things?

Um this is a message board where people ask questions they have been thinking about.  Maybe you don't care but other may wonder about such things.  I am sure you wonder about things he does not care about.   

[sts9fan]

How much for a Yamaha 7 foot grand piano? That's probably more apples to apples and there is a damn sight more craftsmanship and materials in it than in the WP8.
And if the huge company argument holds up, then we should suppose that Sony can deliver a lot more speaker for your dollar than Wilson just because of wherewithall and scale. No?

Well again Yamaha is Toyota.  HUGE company with tons of money.  Sony COULD make the same soeaker for less but nobody HERE would buy it.  Look into the Nissan Skyline.  The last few models have been amazing supercars not sold in the US. Why?  Nobody will buy a 70k Nissan. 

[TONEPUB]

In all fairness, Sony probably could but they have determined that it is not their market.

But so far they haven't...

The question would be more like why does a bosendorfer cost more than a steinway
and why does a steinway cost more than a yamaha?

Everyone concentrates on an area of said market that they feel can be profitable for
them.  There are so many products that may seem unfairly priced, but that's not really
a valid argument.

If you don't want a Wilson speaker, don't buy it.  But to complain about their pricing
is somewhat silly.  Stop by CES next year and introduce yourself to Dave Wilson.
Tell him why you think his speakers are over priced and how you can do better.

Who are you to dismiss someones life's work?

As for SamplesJ, you got my point exactly.  

It's all different and can't be compared directly!
I have freinds that have dreadful BMW experiences as well, yet my 325i just turned over
200k the other day.  It's been meticulously maintained and has had no real repairs outside
of normal wear and tear.  (and my other 325 sedan has 187k with a similar experience)
So who's right when I say BMW makes a great car and my buddy
that had a dreadful experience says they make a crappy car?

[macrojack]

It is true that I don't care about the Damn Yankees.

[TONEPUB]

And the people that can afford Watt Puppies and the system to go with
don't care whether people like me can afford them...

Like it or not, the tip of the high end iceberg has become a luxury
products market.

[Kevin Haskins]

They should have the right to charge whatever someone is willing to pay.     

[macrojack]

Tonepub

High End Audio is not the iceberg -- it is the Titanic. Its pricing is the iceberg.

Referencing your first post, I think you make some good points. In the second one, you challenge me to confront Dave Wilson in person and tell him why I think I can make better speakers. Why?
Then you ask who the hell I am to criticize someone's life work. Who the hell are you to start an audio review publication? I'm just expressing an opinion. No pretense. No motive. Nothing at stake.

Every time this Wilson thing comes up so does the indigence. People ask why I care. I wonder why they care that I care. Why do so many run to the defense of this sham? The stuff is stupidly expensive. Admit it. The pricing is exploitive but it isn't petroleum or health care so I don't see a problem there. The real problem is on the end of the consumer who sponsors such a hoax, or rather buys into the fantasy.