[BrianH]

I am looking to replace my B&W 601's and CC6. I wondered if anyone here might be familiar with the B&W sound character and could comment on the AV-3's in comparison. The 601/CC6 are still nice sounding but I am hoping to do much better. I enjoy both home theater and accoustic type music and vocals. I use them with a small Velodyne active sub, as the B&W's don't quite reach the low end appropriate for home theater. I am thinking building them  would be a fun project (I have been a woodworker for many years) and would love to have them sound noticebly clearer/crisper, especially home theater dialog.

It is my belief that within the last few years there have been enough advances in speaker technology and driver construction to build noticibly better sounding speakers at a reasonable price point but I am not totally sure if the AV-3 are them so I thought I would ask. If not the AV-3's then any suggestions? Ego's, Soloists? Dayton Aluminum kit I've looked at literally 100's a kits and plans, my head is spinning. This was my first stop because of the great reputation GR has. My research so far leads me to believe I might have already found what I want in the AV-3's but I had to ask anyway.

Assuming the AV-3's are right for me then my usual location for the B&W speakers is about 18-24" out from the wall, would the floor standing TL's with a front port be better there or the sealed units? I don't really have a lot of wiggle room in placement so I am looking at speakers that would like to be where I need to put them. I am looking at starting with left, center and right replacements.

thanks in advance for any help,
Brian

[Loftprojection]

I don't know B&W models but from a picture I've found the 601 do seem to be the same model that one of my friend has.  I've never heard them side to side versus my A/V-3 and keep in mind that he is using a high end Onkyo HT receiver to power them versus me with a sweet Audio Aero integrated stereo amp.  So considering that, take my comments with a grain of salt.

I think the A/V-3 might give you a bass that is more snappy and defined.  The B&W my friend has seem to have a more muddy bass but they do go relatively low.  To my taste, the A/V-3 mid/voice are sweeter, less cold then the B&W.  I can't say much more but if they really are the same as my friend, you will certainly not be disappointed by the A/V-3, they are a big notch above my friend's speakers overall.  One time I heard a very high end model of B&W in a store that sounded really good but I think they were something like 8 to 10 thousand!!!

Hope this helps.

Ho by the way, I also built the SW12A/PR sub, together with the A/V-3, it produces unbelievable bass.

[BrianH]

If it helps the BW's have Kevlar drivers and metal dome tweeters, my amp is also an Onkyo. B&W tries hard not to color the sound but to some they sound harsh, I've heard many folks say that a lot of British speakers tend to sound that way.

My description of the B&W I have would be: the tweeters have a "metallic" flavour they never quite lose, I think B&W fixed that in later years but it is definitely present. The bass "blooms" when pushed much ... losing definition ... bloom sort of approximates what happens muddy might be a good word as well. The 3 as a set don't image that well, you always have a sense of where the actual loudspeaker is, the apparent sound source does move around some, just not very accurately like those 8-10k Nautilous pair does.   Give GR 10k and I bet their speakers would sound just peachy as well. lol

[Daygloworange]

I am looking to replace my B&W 601's and CC6. I wondered if anyone here might be familiar with the B&W sound character and could comment on the AV-3's in comparison. The 601/CC6 are still nice sounding but I am hoping to do much better. I enjoy both home theater and accoustic type music and vocals. I use them with a small Velodyne active sub, as the B&W's don't quite reach the low end appropriate for home theater. I am thinking building them  would be a fun project (I have been a woodworker for many years) and would love to have them sound noticebly clearer/crisper, especially home theater dialog.

Brian,

I had a pair of B&W CDM 7 Special Editions for about 6 months (on loan from a friend) Along with a pair of Totem Model 1's (the originals, not the Signatures) and Totem Arrows (IIRC).

This was while I had the A/V 3 kit on order from Danny. The A/V 3 clobbers the CDM 7's . The CDM's are way tubby in the bass, very colored. I wouldn't even consider them a mid-fi speaker. The Totem Model 1's are not a good speaker at all. They have a tilted up tweeter that is very fatiguing, bass is very poorly defined, and the imaging is zero. They do go quite low for such a small speaker. The Totem Arrows were much better than the CDM 7's or the Model 1's. I kinda liked them.

The A/V 3 is a much better speaker than all 3. It is a clear, neutral speaker, with really good, clean bass due to the transmission line design. It images very well, soundstage is very good, and it never gets fatiguing. I'm in no hurry to get rid of mine, the transmission line bass is one of my favorite things about them. They just do bass so well.

The other speaker that I really liked was the PMC transmission line 2 ways. I heard them at a local dealer here in Toronto. I think it was the OB1 or FB1 or something like that. They sounded very nice as well. Very good bass.

My A/V 3's are on loan to a good buddy of mine, he uses them for his L/R mains in his HT which does double duty for his 2 channel as well. He loves them.

BTW, my buddy is selling his CDM 7's after me having loaned him my A/V 3's. He bought my OB 5's.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Cacophonix]

Just want to reiterate what others have mentioned.

Get the AV/3. They'll easily, easily better your B&W 601 for lesser money. Their mids are much sweeter, and bass goes much lower. Their highs are not as piercing as B&W. Overall a very nice speaker. And to think they cost <$400 for the kit incld soniccap upgrade makes the deal all the more better.

[Loftprojection]

If it helps the BW's have Kevlar drivers and metal dome tweeters, my amp is also an Onkyo. B&W tries hard not to color the sound but to some they sound harsh, I've heard many folks say that a lot of British speakers tend to sound that way.

My description of the B&W I have would be: the tweeters have a "metallic" flavour they never quite lose, I think B&W fixed that in later years but it is definitely present. The bass "blooms" when pushed much ... losing definition ... bloom sort of approximates what happens muddy might be a good word as well. The 3 as a set don't image that well, you always have a sense of where the actual loudspeaker is, the apparent sound source does move around some, just not very accurately like those 8-10k Nautilous pair does.   Give GR 10k and I bet their speakers would sound just peachy as well. lol

Hiiiii, metal dome tweeters, sorry, I'm really not a big fan of those.  I've heard several speakers over the years and every single one of them that had metal dome were not my cup of tea.   From the description you give, it looks like your experience is just about the same as what I was explaining in my post so I'm more and more convinced that you will be floored by the sound of the A/V-3.  Ho, and something you might not have considered, you also might end up like me, after I listened to my finished A/V-3, I was really happy but then sad at the same time because the fun project was over.  So I spent a few weeks enjoying them and then called Danny so that he sends me a sub kit and off I was again, building something new!  haha  Here is a picture of my kit, this was the first time I ever built speakers, had never done soldering or cabinets, turned out pretty good:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=729&pos=19

[BrianH]

The Av-3's seem to be what I was looking for, thanks for all the information and pm's, buying speakers by mail is kinda counter intuitive So I wanted to see what you all really thought. My old B&W's have been good for a lot of years, better than most of the crap they sold and in general ahead of their time I thought.

From reading back through the old posts it sounds like if I put the port in front instead of back then 18-24" from wall would be ok?  From what I read the damping and non resonance are extremely important in TL so I plan to take great care with that aspect of the build. I am not really clear exactly what needs to be moved besides the port it doesn't jump out to me how I can do that without changing the labrinth length, maybe that isn't so critical as I would have thought. Since I am using a sub anyway do I even care where the port is? So much to figure out, it will be fun I think.

Brian

[Danny Richie]

If you take the cabinet plans and drop out brace C, then you can flip the rest of the lower section of it 180 degrees and you have it.

[BrianH]

If you take the cabinet plans and drop out brace C, then you can flip the rest of the lower section of it 180 degrees and you have it.

I looked again and I understand what to do, it will be straightforward ... thanks. The older thread on front porting and pictures was very informative as well. They are even meeting with the wifey's approval if I do them in Teak (probably veneer or layer of some sort over mdf), a few more minor decisions to make and some vendors to locate and I can place the orders.

Thanks to everyone! I'll try to take a few snapshots along the way, they might be helpful to someone else
Brian

[Loftprojection]

Thanks to everyone! I'll try to take a few snapshots along the way, they might be helpful to someone else
Brian

We don't want thanks now, we are eager to see pics and stories of your progress and appreciation! 

[Hank]

Brian,  show your wife my rosewood veneered A/V-3's on page 3 of this link and see if she stys with teak:
http://www.geocities.com/hankbond1/index

[BrianH]

Brian,  show your wife my rosewood veneered A/V-3's on page 3 of this link and see if she stys with teak:
http://www.geocities.com/hankbond1/index

]

Those are gorgeous, I'll show her the picture, thanks!

[BrianH]

Woot! I placed the order today!

I plan to use HD (high density) plywood for construction ... some info on it is at:
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=26

Just in case someone reads this and isn't aware that there are different kinds of plywood let me be perfectly clear, I am talking about high density baltic birch or maple plywood which has typically 13 plys and weighs about 100 lbs per sheet.  It's commonly used for cabinets or drawer sides. It's usually denser / heavier than mdf without the fine dust problem (always wear a dust mask with this stuff) and lack of structural strength. FYI, HD maple plywood is usually called Appleply.

If you are considering doing this ... Very likely you can just stain it whatever color you like and wipe on some poly and you are done, if you can cut decent miter joints, no veneering involved. I said wipe on poly because if you are not a very good brush finisher (like me) you can still get a very good looking finish with virtually no risk of problems using a wipe on poly like minwax. The trick is do a number (2-3) of thin coats, not thick.

Anyway I don't want to start any kind of argument over plywood as a construction material, just provide information what I am planning to do and why. I noticed there seems to be a bit of ignorance out there regarding all the various plywoods available.   But yes I am aware that any difference in the cabinet material will change the sound at least a little and possibly a lot. All mdf isn't alike either for that matter.

Brian

[Daygloworange]

Brian,

We use quite a bit of both MDF and Baltic Birch. Baltic birch is typically 10 to 12 pounds less per sheet than MDF in a 3/4" thickness.

The ticket on the side of the bundle we receive tells us the exact weight of a lift of sheets. You just divide the gross weight of the bundle by the number of sheets on the lift.

Cheers

[BrianH]

Brian,

We use quite a bit of both MDF and Baltic Birch. Baltic birch is typically 10 to 12 pounds less per sheet than MDF in a 3/4" thickness.

The ticket on the side of the bundle we receive tells us the exact weight of a lift of sheets. You just divide the gross weight of the bundle by the number of sheets on the lift.

Cheers

Exactly! In America what we call Baltic Birch is often neither all Birch or from the Baltic Sea region of Europe and can vary quite a lot in quality depending who made it, where and how. European Baltic Birch always used to come in 5' x 5' squares (1525x1525 mm) not 4'x8'. Some other stuff now is coming from Asia it's usually not very good, the better stuff is from Russia and sometimes from Finland. I would expect a premium BB type plywood to be around 85 to 100 pounds for a 4x8 sheet of 3/4". Appleply is 88# I believe. A 4x8 sheet of 3/4" mdf can run anywhere from 70-100 lbs depending on the manufacturer.

Appleply, made by States Industries is a premium US made plywood, it used to be maple plywood, now not so much is maple. True Baltic Birch usually comes from northern Europe, birch there is slower growing (cold climate), harder and denser than that found in America and consequently more desireable. There is also a more recent entry in the marlet called "Blondewood" South America's entry into the market,  much is also coming in from China/Asia.

Blondewood is often not made with waterproof glue. Using waterproof glue often also qualifies the plywood to be called marine plywood which is basically plywood that resists moisture. The point of all this being, know what you are buying, or you won't get what you thought you were getting. Lowes, Menards, Home Depot have been stocking plywood they are calling Baltic Birch it's usually stamped "made in china" and is pretty crappy, not because of where it's made but because of "how" it's made.

You can go to http://www.macbeath.com/ which is a very good store and has pretty much everything you probably could ever want along the wood lines. I can recommend them as I used to live in San Francisco and went there often to get my exotic woods.   www.pals4wood.com has environmentally friendly plywood but I have not used it, just know it exists.

All this means is that a premium quality Baltic Birch type premium plywood is very heavy, very dense, fairly hard to find and can have very similar or better properties than mdf. It's really all about how the plywood is made, and from what that will make all the difference. It also retails in the ~$100 a sheet or more range. It's what I will be using.