[doug s.]

hi all,

due to the thread about whether hi-fi is dying, or whether it is yust smelling funny, i wanted to run this poll.  partly due to what macrojack has been saying, indicated by the  following post:

"...I agree completely that there will always be those who recycle and cherish the products of yore. What you seem to be missing is the fact that the industry cannot survive on same. In order for high fidelity to continue to thrive and grow, it will need a continuous market which it is losing. It is not necessary to employ contrived statistics to make this apparent. Today's youth are looking in a different direction and without them there is no future.

We are dinosaurs. Most of our numbers are over 40 and many are beyond 60. Our time is short, our priorities are changing, and our interest is waning. Rage against the dying of the light if you must but be aware that the final flicker is inevitable..."

imo, (expressed on that thread), hi-end isn't dying, it's always smelled funny, compared to the rest of the audio industry.  macrojack's thought that all of us hi-end dinosaurs are dying out w/no replacements in the wing got me thinking; i am not sure he's right, so i wanted to get an idea about the age of the a/c fanatics on this forum...   

doug s.

[BrianM]

Why the heck can't I see the fill-in bubbles on any of these polls?

[BrianM]

Never mind, fixed it.

[TheChairGuy]

First off, thanks for allowing me to be grouped with the 35 year olds, Doug 

Second, you won't be able to truly determine if 'most' of the members are over 40, nor 60, by grouping ages as you have it.  I think you have fairly common age groups represented - perhaps they are even standard in direct marketing and other industries  - but they won't give you the picture you are seeking.

You'll get close, but not anywhere near spot on.

[fiveoclockfriday]

Hmmm...I am 24, which is not well specified in the poll. I just chose the first option. It would be interesting to relate these figures to the "system cost" poll. I suspect younger guys (and girls, but let's be honest it's almost all guys) may be enthusiastic, but just don't have the budget for 5 and 6 figure systems that help keep many hifi companies in business. There are exceptions both ways obviously, but it'd still be interesting.

[doug s.]

cart-man, you're right that i won't specifically be able to determine if macrojack is correct w/his 40-60 age group.  but, his age group is yust as arbitrary as mine is!     and all i am looking for is a trend here...  as of now, (still early), it's ~43% under 45, 57% over.  so far, so good, for getting some "new blood" into the hi-end world, imo...   

doug s.

First off, thanks for allowing me to be grouped with the 35 year olds, Doug 

Second, you won't be able to truly determine if 'most' of the members are over 40, nor 60, by grouping ages as you have it.  I think you have fairly common age groups represented - perhaps they are even standard in direct marketing and other industries  - but they won't give you the picture you are seeking.

You'll get close, but not anywhere near spot on.

[doug s.]

thanks - noted, & correction made.   

re: the guys girls thing, i thought about a gender poll (no pun intended!    ), but i know it would be ~100% male... 

doug s.

Hmmm...I am 24, which is not well specified in the poll. I just chose the first option. It would be interesting to relate these figures to the "system cost" poll. I suspect younger guys (and girls, but let's be honest it's almost all guys) may be enthusiastic, but just don't have the budget for 5 and 6 figure systems that help keep many hifi companies in business. There are exceptions both ways obviously, but it'd still be interesting.

[Marbles]

"... In order for high fidelity to continue to thrive and grow, ."

High fidelity (hi-end 2 channel listening)  isn't thriving or growing, so how can it "continue" that which it is not?

[BrianM]

I suspect younger guys (and girls, but let's be honest it's almost all guys) may be enthusiastic, but just don't have the budget for 5 and 6 figure systems that help keep many hifi companies in business.

I think that's exactly right.  Like taking a poll of who drives MBs or BMWs and concluding that the high-end car industry is dying out.

[BrianM]

Seems to me the high end audio industry has only grown with people's disposable incomes.  Its future is likely tied to the future of the economy.

[doug s.]

marbles, hi-end audio has never thrived, it's only existed, imo.  your quote is macrojack's spin, which i don't agree with.  i am only interested in hi-end's continued existence.  which is why i think it will do, quite nicely, thanks.  tho there's many other distractions, the web makes the existence of hi-end much more noticeable to audio fans.  i was always an audio nut, but i didn't discover the hi-end until 1984...  now, anyone into music will discover the hi-end at a much earlier age; of course the cost of gear, etc, may delay when they will actually "jump in"...

doug s.

"... In order for high fidelity to continue to thrive and grow, ."

High fidelity (hi-end 2 channel listening)  isn't thriving or growing, so how can it "continue" that which it is not?

[doug s.]

this misses the point, imo.  which is why i started this poll - to simply find out how many young whippersnappers participate here!   

a "hi-end" 2-channel audio system can be built for 4 figures, EASILY.  even three figures - $999 - can get you a hi-end system, imo, if you shop carefully.  the question isn't so much one of budget, but one of interest.

doug s.

I suspect younger guys (and girls, but let's be honest it's almost all guys) may be enthusiastic, but just don't have the budget for 5 and 6 figure systems that help keep many hifi companies in business.

I think that's exactly right.  Like taking a poll of who drives MBs or BMWs and concluding that the high-end car industry is dying out.

[miklorsmith]

How many freaking hi-fi companies are there out there?  Are they all operating at a loss?  How many folks out there think the music that was around when they were young is great but things have gone in the crapper?

The older generation always points to the younger generation and says "they'll be the death of us all".  I'm one of the "Gen X'ers".  Remember us?  Lazy with no ambition?  Heard anything about that lately?  Nope, we're kicking ass and taking names.

Our best friend is the music, whatever music.  Hi-fi sells itself in the end.  Anyone who falls in love with music will be motivated to pursue it.  Love of music does not skip generations and when the young quit being so damn young, they'll start exploring more subtle pursuits like quiet listening.  It doesn't hurt that they'll have more dough then and also probably kids to anchor them to the home environment.

What a bunch of kooks we are.

[doug s.]

not all of us are kooks.  some of us old geezers know that hi-end audio will live on forever...   

doug s.

How many freaking hi-fi companies are there out there?  Are they all operating at a loss?  How many folks out there think the music that was around when they were young is great but things have gone in the crapper?

The older generation always points to the younger generation and says "they'll be the death of us all".  I'm one of the "Gen X'ers".  Remember us?  Lazy with no ambition?  Heard anything about that lately?  Nope, we're kicking ass and taking names.

Our best friend is the music, whatever music.  Hi-fi sells itself in the end.  Anyone who falls in love with music will be motivated to pursue it.  Love of music does not skip generations and when the young quit being so damn young, they'll start exploring more subtle pursuits like quiet listening.  It doesn't hurt that they'll have more dough then and also probably kids to anchor them to the home environment.

What a bunch of kooks we are.

[macrojack]

As Doug says, we have always been a fringe market. He also has stated that our hobby is hostage to the recording industry. We are too few in number now to exercise meaningful impact on market decisions and our numbers are shifting as we move more and more into HT and gaming.
When audio was big, record companies saw a reason to court us. Today they are abandoning us as our niche becomes ever less profitable. Soon we will be utterly forgotten by the big guys and a few small players will cater to our small needs. They will probably do O.K. flying under the corporate radar but offering will be few and budgets will be tiny. Most of what is available via the mainstream will not support or enhance our systems.
Meanwhile, ever more of us will be listening to unamplified harp music eternally.

Not only do we have no momentum, we are stagnating.

I chose my ages (40 & 60) advisedly. Under 40 is coming up and over 60 is going down in terms of consumption. And this topic hinges on consumption, not appreciation.

[miklorsmith]

Higher appreciation = higher consumption, says the disposable income.

The gear is getting better and better and there are still great recordings being made.  The big boys have been selling to radio markets and have not been/will not be catering to us.  That's status quo, not forecast.

I think the labels of old you refer to were not the mainstream at the time, yet they produced classics that through the lens of history have persevered, making it seem like they were the rule of the day.

macro, you certainly have your curmudgeon hat on.  I hope that you at least hope you're wrong.

[doug s.]

hi-end never courted us.  the only difference was that mainstream software was accessible to the hi-end.  in fact, it still is, for the most part.  the primary medium is still redbook cd - a step down from winyl, but still decent.  and, winyl is readily awailable for those willing to find it.  we are too few in numbers to excercise meaningful impact on market decisions?  "same as it ever was"!     we can't be forgotten by the "big guys" if they never paid attention to us anyways!     if the big guys paid attention to audiophiles, then the original intro of cd would have been a 24/192 format, >25 years ago.

about two hours into this poll, & 53% of a/c participants are <45 years of age.  bodes well for the hi-end, me thinks.  what 'bout you, matey's?  arrrrghh!!!   

doug s.

As Doug says, we have always been a fringe market. He also has stated that our hobby is hostage to the recording industry. We are too few in number now to exercise meaningful impact on market decisions and our numbers are shifting as we move more and more into HT and gaming.
When audio was big, record companies saw a reason to court us. Today they are abandoning us as our niche becomes ever less profitable. Soon we will be utterly forgotten by the big guys and a few small players will cater to our small needs. They will probably do O.K. flying under the corporate radar but offering will be few and budgets will be tiny. Most of what is available via the mainstream will not support or enhance our systems.
Meanwhile, ever more of us will be listening to unamplified harp music eternally.

Not only do we have no momentum, we are stagnating.

I chose my ages (40 & 60) advisedly. Under 40 is coming up and over 60 is going down in terms of consumption. And this topic hinges on consumption, not appreciation.

[martyo]

a "hi-end" 2-channel audio system can be built for 4 figures, EASILY.  even three figures - $999 - can get you a hi-end system, imo, if you shop carefully.  the question isn't so much one of budget, but one of interest.

The first part of this statement proves your conclusion. Obviously, our opinions must differ on what constitutes "hi-end". Rather than a rabbit trail off the thread topic discussing what constitutes "hi end" I will just say I don't agree at all. This year I replaced my front end (amp, pre, and DAC) and I'm half way through your "4 figures, EASILY". If I replace my speakers I will hit the 5 figure EASILY. (AVA gear is really a bargain.) If these youngsters go into a high end store/salon, if the prices don't send them on a different path, the attitude probably will. This Audio Circle is very beneficial with informing people of the direct sales companies. The kids in their early 20's I know are very happy with their ipods.  They would never just sit and listen to music, so as part of a multi task it will be hard for the interest to even develop. Home theatre is a different story. But there has never been many of us. Even with my midfi sets over the years, people would come over and OOH and AAH but never spend "that kind of money" on a stereo.
So there's my opinion.
It seems to me that different circles here can have real different age demographics.

[doug s.]

you are missing the point about what i am saying.  sure, you can easily spend five figures on a hi-end system, even shopping used - amhik!    

but, those young whippersnappers can get into it at an entry level, & work their way up, as funds allow.  yust like i did.  instead of spending $1k on an all-in-one p.o.s. from beast buy.  there's a big difference, imo, between a thoughtfully put-together system and a one size fits all piece of junk.  this is what separates hi-end from mid-fi, even at lower prices.  and, this idea was even written up in the mainstream media, four years ago:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078269

doug s.

a "hi-end" 2-channel audio system can be built for 4 figures, EASILY.  even three figures - $999 - can get you a hi-end system, imo, if you shop carefully.  the question isn't so much one of budget, but one of interest.

The first part of this statement proves your conclusion. Obviously, our opinions must differ on what constitutes "hi-end". Rather than a rabbit trail off the thread topic discussing what constitutes "hi end" I will just say I don't agree at all. This year I replaced my front end (amp, pre, and DAC) and I'm half way through your "4 figures, EASILY". If I replace my speakers I will hit the 5 figure EASILY. (AVA gear is really a bargain.) If these youngsters go into a high end store/salon, if the prices don't send them on a different path, the attitude probably will. This Audio Circle is very beneficial with informing people of the direct sales companies. The kids in their early 20's I know are very happy with their ipods.  They would never just sit and listen to music, so as part of a multi task it will be hard for the interest to even develop. Home theatre is a different story. But there has never been many of us. Even with my midfi sets over the years, people would come over and OOH and AAH but never spend "that kind of money" on a stereo.
So there's my opinion.
It seems to me that different circles here can have real different age demographics.

[mcullinan]

Jesus.... my wheelchair has twin subs below the seat and the armrests are line arrays. My chair goes a blistering 4 miles per hour and I like to put on my silver rims while riding through Brooklyn.

Im an old fart who knows how to roll.
Mike