Stereophile's "A" List--No Direct Drive Turntables?

Lyndon · « **on:** 15 Sep 2007, 02:43 pm »

Has this always been the case? Last week's Stereophile's issue came out with the autumn list, and I felt that the Technics DD table was strangely absent. Perhaps they have never included DD turntables?

Off topic from this, a good audio friend is singing the praises of his new Toshiba HD player. After downloading new firmware, his opinion is that the sound of even his redbook cd's is better than his Pioneer Elite. And he is crazy about the new Dolby HD codec, even in two channel. I can't find much of any online reviews for the audio quality of the two Toshiba HD players. Am I missing something?

TONEPUB · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 03:32 pm »

It's because the SL1200 is just a budget turntable and doesn't come close to the performance
of a Linn, SME, Rega, etc. It's not really considered a high performance turntable and they
don't review modded gear, so something like a KAB wouldn't enter into the realm.

And before you think I'm an elitist jerk, I have a 1200 as a third table....

Lyndon · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 03:48 pm »

Thanks, Tonepub. I don't think you are an "elitist jerk"

I had a feeling that might be the case with "modded" gear, though I thought John Atkinson and crew were opening up to the diy and modded area a bit more these past few years.

I think I am still a little stunned by Art Dudley's comment that a certain $4600+ cartridge was a "bargain"
Right...

WEEZ · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 04:03 pm »

I don't know about the Toshiba HD, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to sound more musical than your turntable.....

WEEZ

Wayner · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 07:20 pm »

I've let my subscription to Stereopile run out. I'm sick of the scheme. Let's have manufacturers buy ads in our stupid magazine, then we do reviews giving every review a total thumbs up on them and then the manufacturers buy more ads. Then once a year we pile up a "recommended components" list of everyting we reviewed (of course all were great) and give them a grade a,b or c (of course even the "c" grade is damn good). It's like alcoholics making beer and then grading which one is better and of course if your an alcoholic, even the shittiest beer is GREAT!

The editors at Stereopile are indeed elitist snobs.

doug s. · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 07:48 pm »

ymmv, but i would certainly choose the technics sl1200 over the similarly priced rega's or used stock linn's. and, i'd choose the kabusa modded sl1200 over any rega or linn.

doug s.

lazydays · « **Reply #6 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 07:48 pm »

Quote from: Lyndon on 15 Sep 2007, 03:48 pm

Thanks, Tonepub. I don't think you are an "elitist jerk"

I had a feeling that might be the case with "modded" gear, though I thought John Atkinson and crew were opening up to the diy and modded area a bit more these past few years.

I think I am still a little stunned by Art Dudley's comment that a certain $4600+ cartridge was a "bargain"
Right...

I doubt that an SL1200 modded or not would run with the boys in Class B or Class A. I've owned at least one SL1200 and a couple other direct drives; it's a "no contest."
gary

lazydays · « **Reply #7 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 07:53 pm »

Quote from: doug s. on 15 Sep 2007, 07:48 pm

ymmv, but i would certainly choose the technics sl1200 over the similarly priced rega's or used stock linn's. and, i'd choose the kabusa modded sl1200 over any rega or linn.

doug s.

I have no idea what a KAB SL1200 cost, but if it's in the $700 a used Rega PL25 will eat it up. (assuming it's got the RB 600 tonearm) A well kept Linn will eat up the Rega as well.
gary

doug s. · « **Reply #8 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 08:05 pm »

reasonable persons will disagree...

personally, i would rather use a stock sl1200 than a stock rega pl25 - ymmv...

doug s.

Quote from: lazydays on 15 Sep 2007, 07:53 pm

Quote from: doug s. on 15 Sep 2007, 07:48 pm
ymmv, but i would certainly choose the technics sl1200 over the similarly priced rega's or used stock linn's. and, i'd choose the kabusa modded sl1200 over any rega or linn.

doug s.

I have no idea what a KAB SL1200 cost, but if it's in the $700 a used Rega PL25 will eat it up. (assuming it's got the RB 600 tonearm) A well kept Linn will eat up the Rega as well.
gary

Toka · « **Reply #9 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 09:10 pm »

Quote from: doug s. on 15 Sep 2007, 08:05 pm

reasonable persons will disagree... personally, i would rather use a stock sl1200 than a stock rega pl25 - ymmv...

And I stopped caring about anything Stereophile says a long time ago, for reasons already mentioned. I'll flip through it at the magazine stand (purty pictures) but thats about it.

machine · « **Reply #10 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 11:16 pm »

Interesting....

The only HiFi turntables I've ever owned have been Technics turntables.

My first SL-1950 fully automatic turntable is easily surpassed by the stock SL1200MK2's I recently picked up.

The Fully KAB modded SL1200 in my main system is super nice. Adding a Hagerman Cornet2 Pre was a big increase.

Haven't listened to other turntables so I can't really say what I like better, but so far my setup kicks ass...

Would love to hear others, but can't easily do so in a showroom. Tweeters or Best Buy don't have turntables that can get anywhere near even a stock 1200...

Anyone in Chicagoland area open for some listening sessions let me know.

Lyndon · « **Reply #11 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 11:37 pm »

I would love to hear one of those KAB models in the Salt Lake area. At another audio forum, I asked this question, and John Atkinson brought up the old discussion of DD engines with inherent problems vs. belt drive, but Charles Hansen of Ayre disputed this and mentioned some DD turntables that he liked. The oldest one, a Kenwood L-07D sure was a beauty!

http://www.l-07d.com/ownersgallery.htm

TONEPUB · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Sep 2007, 12:07 am »

Just because I've heard so many people raving out here, I picked up an SL-15 that
I'm working on a custom plinth for. I have a spare SME 309 laying around so I thought
it would be a fun project....

We'll see how it goes!

Marc Phillips (the Vinyl Anachronist) on our staff has a 1200 that we are going to
do all the tweeks to and see where it goes. We did a Rega P25 last year, so this
will be fun.

For us, it's more about the journey than arguing about what "destroys" what...

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Sep 2007, 05:21 pm »

Quote from: Lyndon on 15 Sep 2007, 11:37 pm

I would love to hear one of those KAB models in the Salt Lake area. At another audio forum, I asked this question, and John Atkinson brought up the old discussion of DD engines with inherent problems vs. belt drive, but Charles Hansen of Ayre disputed this and mentioned some DD turntables that he liked. The oldest one, a Kenwood L-07D sure was a beauty!

http://www.l-07d.com/ownersgallery.htm

By spec, the Kenwood is the most impressive DD I've ever 'seen'. But, it lacks a fluid damped tonearm....that's a fairly grievous oversight with any tonearm, I'm of that opinion.

KAB offers that option (a fluid trough)...but the older JVC and Denon DD's had internally fluid damped arms and or servo arms with electronic Q damping in vertical and horizontal planes. That's gr8 stuff!

Lyndon · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Sep 2007, 05:38 pm »

I agree with you about the fluid damped arm. I wonder what the " Kenwood Lab Team's" response would have been? Maybe it is that you give up some advantage for something else?

Chair Guy, that photo of yours with the JVC TT covered in plasti-clay is still one of my favorite shots!

Could you have found any spot left to put more on? Looks like an audio CSI....and when we remove the cast...
we find that there is an RCA Victor imprint on that plinth!

When visiting an old friend in Maryland this past summer, he took me to the Audio Kharma's guru of all things Yamaha. What a basement of old Yammie gear. He had painstakingly restored one of those Yamaha linear turntables, and I guess the story was a "servo chip" that was pretty impossible to obtain had rendered these useless. The fellow had found someone in England with three of the chips and now had a working model.
I couldn't determine sound quality, because it was in his working basement, but it was an impressive, beautiful TT.

Toka · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Sep 2007, 06:14 pm »

Ah, I have been to that basement as well.

Great gear, even better owner...lots of good sounding stuff down there. The Yammie linear TT's were probably the best of that design.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Sep 2007, 06:16 pm »

Quote from: Lyndon on 16 Sep 2007, 05:38 pm

Chair Guy, that photo of yours with the JVC TT covered in plasti-clay is still one of my favorite shots!

Could you have found any spot left to put more on? Looks like an audio CSI....and when we remove the cast...
we find that there is an RCA Victor imprint on that plinth!

I bought that JVC for $50 on ebay to use a test mule....it was my first DD and I wanted to see if it could be fashioned into a 'real' deck. I did the same to a belt drive JVC that I owned 20+ years ago - I donated it to my dealer as a 'museum' piece to show when I finally broke down and bought a proper, classy belt drive table - a Thorens TD-316.

In both cases of clay-ing the decks, belt or direct drive, the differences were astounding. No, there was no additional room to add any sensible bits of plast-i-clay to either deck (inside or out). Tho the clay on the inside was more important, the reduction in sympathetic vibrations and gains in clarity were very positive by adding the clay to the top of the plinth. Adding a light layer of spray damping compound and a thin layer of clay to the platter underside were helpful, too.

My newest JVC DD, with fluid

damped arm, has all the clay inside...but I could bring myself to clay the outside again - even though I know I'm not getting the very best from the deck. It's just too ugly.

Lyndon · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Sep 2007, 07:42 pm »

Toka,
You are right! He is an amazing fellow. What a basement of audio gear. But we all have idiosyncrasies, no?
Did you see all those FREEZERS filled with Omaha Steaks??? And I hope you didn't get corralled by his wife and her hobby of collecting dolls? Each to his own. We had a good time talking about Heathkits, Allied Knight Kits, Eico gear from Long Island City...the golden age of Japanese gear...
He had in his possession the biggest receiver that Yamaha made, but said that bigger isn't always better, and that he felt other models were far better in sound quality.

Chair Guy,
My first TT was my favorite. A Perpetuum Ebner 2020 in a store display case, very rare. I built a special shelf with suspension into the wall studs, outfitted it with a black and gold Empire 1000? cartridge and put on a white vinyl copy of the Stones Beggar Banquet for, ahem, display purposes. All ripped off the day after Christmas, while I was at the family home from college.

How does that arm in your present JVC compare to the current Denons?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Sep 2007, 08:00 pm »

Quote from: Lyndon on 16 Sep 2007, 07:42 pm

How does that arm in your present JVC compare to the current Denons?

Beats me - but I'd think the damped arm alone should put it a peg up on the new Denons.. The new Denon's, including the $650 top-of-the-line one they sell, look like throwaways.

They shoulda' done it right and come out with a $1000 table with the proper servo arm on it

Maybe, they will

royphil345 · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 Sep 2007, 03:23 am »

Probably because there are only 2 direct-drive tables I know of in production... The Technics and the Denon. Both fine tables. Definitely not "A" list though.

I think the Technics has plenty of potential and is a fantastic value considering that and the price of a stock model. Would require a few mods to be a solid "C" or "B" list...

Not knocking it at all. I'm an extremely satisfied 1200 owner and I think it absolutely kills the Regas IN IT'S PRICE RANGE (plays at the right speed and everything... LOL). First table I've owned with the resolution necessary to set the tonearm EXACTLY right without too much fussing. Once set... it stays set... and there's a little added warmth that may be undesirable in the best systems, but seems to mask minor flaws a little in more modest setups.