Need help with full range speaker selection

Trevor · « **on:** 14 Sep 2007, 12:47 am »

I haven't posted here in a really long time, but I still read the forums fairly regularly. I'm doing a home remodel and my setup area is becoming a little more "Aesthetically Pleasing" and I'm losing some room to the rest of the family. I also don't have the time that I used to have to dedicate to constantly change my system. So, I'm looking for suggestions for new speakers.

My current setup: TactAudio 2.2x -> Mac 501 mono's -> VMPS RM40's

Listening (Family) Room: 22'x18' w/ hard finishes. I have a high shed ceiling that slopes from 14' to 10'. I set up along the 18' side and sit about 19' back. My speakers are about 12' apart.

What I like: HUGE sound. I used to make live recordings of rock concerts and like to be able to recreate that atmosphere in my family room. Deep bass and large soundstage. I really listen to mainly rock and roll. I also like really fast but rich sound dynamic sound.

What I feel like I'm missing now: I just really can't seem to get the speakers to be perfect in my room. The soundstage seems way too narrow and not tall enough (my RM40's are BC special editions with the new style cabinets, TRT's, and other bells and whistles, but no wave guides.) My mids also seem to become compressed where a singer's voice will really blend with a guitar sometimes and become indistinguishable. I have owned the speakers for a few years, in 4 different houses. That means that I am familiar with all means of adjustment etc.

What I'm looking for: HUGE sound, soundstage, clarity, full range, easy to place and setup, etc. I know this sounds like what everybody is always looking for and that it's a tall order to fill, but I would like to hear some suggestions.

I'm really happy and believe in the Tact and the 501's. I have had many other amps and preamps and this combination seems to give me the perfect mix of slam and silkiness. I may also decide to keep the RM40's and perform the CDWG upgrade.

Any suggestions that you have would be appreciated. I would also not mind spending a little more on the speakers for a more long term solution. Realizing that everything is a compromise, I would like to hear what you guys think.

Thanks,

Trevor

Daygloworange · « **Reply #1 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 01:04 am »

Keep your eyes on this thread, and the Single Driver circle.

These guys can help you out.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45210.0

Cheers

opnly bafld · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 01:33 am »

Quote from: Daygloworange on 14 Sep 2007, 01:04 am

Keep your eyes on this thread, and the Single Driver circle.

These guys can help you out.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45210.0

Cheers

I think Trevor is looking for full range speakers, not fullrange (single driver) speakers.

Trevor, wrt soundstage height, I have found that if I sit with my ear about a 1/3 up on the mid panel above the tweeter it helps.

As far as soundstage width, if your speakers are 12' apart and it still seems narrow, well I can't help you there.
Different rooms but mine are about 7' apart and I am happy with the width.
Preamps can make a big difference, but I know others who have used the Tact and felt it was pretty good.

Lin

Tweaker · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 01:37 am »

These might fit the bill when available:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45189.0
(click the link that JohnR provides).

opnly bafld · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 01:42 am »

Quote from: Tweaker on 14 Sep 2007, 01:37 am

These might fit the bill when available:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45189.0
(click the link that JohnR provides).

Those or their BIG brother.

Lin

Double Ugly · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 04:15 am »

Most know how enamored I am with SP Technology, and consequently I try to avoid making recommendations lest I be labeled a shill (assuming it isn't too late

). Regardless, I have to chime in here because you just described the Revelations to a tee. I assume that's especially true if they're equipped with all the good stuff. aa

If what I'm told is accurate, I suspect you'd have your expectations met and then some. Big "if", I know, but the 'old' version was the best top-to-bottom speaker I've ever heard, a list that includes (among others) RM-30s, -40s, RM/X, Dali MegaLines and the massive, 4-cabinet Alon system.

gongos should have his pretty soon, so maybe he'll offer a first-hand report.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 04:25 am »

Trevor....

Quote

What I like: HUGE sound. I used to make live recordings of rock concerts and like to be able to recreate that atmosphere in my family room. Deep bass and large soundstage. I really listen to mainly rock and roll. I also like really fast but rich sound dynamic sound.

As DU mentioned above.....they are the right speaker for what your looking for....rock on !!!

JLM · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 09:57 am »

I'd try talking with Brian.

You've got a big, rather odd/squarish room there. Is it also open to other rooms (that the bass would have to pressurize too)? Being a rocker I assume you play loud, so you may not have enough speaker/amp bass output to fill that big space. The proportions aren't ideal, the hard surfaces don't help, and the sloped ceiling makes it harder to model. Along big rooms are better than smaller, room treatments would surely help. I'd ask in the Acoustics Circle.

Does moving the speakers around help? Have you tried moving your speakers and/or listening position farther out into the room? (If your listening 19 feet away in a 22 foot long room it would seem that both you and speakers are too close to front/back walls according to conventional wisdom.)

Funny, but Paul Klipsch had the problem of "a hole in middle of the soundstage" with the Klipschorn and so developed the Cornwall. I thought of this because BC won atCES with a 3 speaker stereo setup.

If your speakers aren't setup along the "bottom" edge of the shed ceiling I wonder if the line array premise of the floor/ceiling reflections "extending" the line would work. The minimum 10 foot ceilings would be another matter for concern even if the speakers are along the "bottom" ceiling edge.

macrojack · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 11:56 am »

Unlike the other speakers recommended here, Zu is not a member of the Audio Circle inner circle. However, they make the speaker you are looking for. Contact Sean Casey at 1-800-516-8925. He'll answer your questions and won't try to sell you anything.

Zu speakers have their roots in pro sound and will pressurize a room like no other. They are full range and very dynamic, and they provide the option of internal or external bi-amping just by changing your speaker connections on the back of the cabinet.

You will probably be fine with the Presence speaker at $6995 per pair, but if you want to bring down the house, the Definition MK 2 will fill an auditorium for $11,000 per pair.

Be sure to check them out.

pocket4 · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 01:02 pm »

Hi Trevor,
I have a room about the same size as you do, mine is 22x24 with 22'' high sloped ceiling. I too was on a quest for new speakers a couple of months ago when I ran across www.bamberg.com. I really got lucky. In talking with Phil Bamberg I told him what I was looking for and what already had(Legacy-Focus) and what I was current looking at, a pair of Tyler Woodmere's a buddy of mine had. I ended up buying Phil's Series 5MTM and a pair of Dual XLS sub woofers. These are far and away the best speakers I've every heard or had in my system.

They're the most complete full range speakers I have ever heard and fill the room with sound. They will rock! They never sound harsh at any volume level. Did I say a HUGE sound stage and the vocals all I can say is WOW!

As for my amps driving them I'm using Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 and a Hafler 9500 on the subs.

Do your self and your pocketbook a favor and get a hold of Phil Bamberg.

Steve

pocket4 · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 01:04 pm »

Trevor
By the way the picture on my post is the MTM 5, sitting atop of the Dual XLS subs.

Double Ugly · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 03:13 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 14 Sep 2007, 09:57 am

I'd try talking with Brian.

You've got a big, rather odd/squarish room there...

Talking to Brian may be the right answer, but he's owned and used the speakers in 4 different houses.

Since he made a point of mentioning that fact, I think he believes he's heard them in a number of sufficiently different rooms to know what they're capable of.

JP78 · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 04:39 pm »

most people that love their rm40's have them biamped. it really removes all the compression / stridency of the ribbons...a night and day difference i would say. trevor, could you borrow a friend's tube amplifier and try biamping your speakers? i believe there's a reason that brian always shows his speakers either biamped or triamped, and always has critical praise as a result...the difference in sound is *tremendous*. them ribbons just need the juice.

Trevor · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 05:45 pm »

I want to thank everybody for their help. Please keep the recommendations coming.

I have biamped my 40's in the past, but everytime I did, I lost some cohesiveness. I've used a Crown K2 and I can't remember the other pro amp that I used (it was another highly recommended French piece? RCS maybe?). I have also biamped with 4 Tact 2150s.

I have had multiple sets of VMPS speakers. The RM2, 626r paired with dual dedicated subs, and the RM40's paired with a larger. I am very accustomed to them and have been a very loyal customer to them, both Brian and John Casler, for a long time. Both of those guys have taken extremely good care of me. I think I have just gotten to the point where I want to try something new.

I really know what the 40's are capable of. I have had them setup where they were outstanding. Others heard the system and thought it was remarkable, but I had them setup perfectly. I don't have that luxury anymore. I really need a speaker that isn't as susceptible to placement issues. The speakers need to be setup relatively close to the wall.

I also gave up on biamping because I got tired of having so much gear all of the time. I decided to go out and buy the Mac 501's because I wanted to have a set of good, high power, high current monos. Also, so many manufacturers are actively amping their subs now. The 501's may be overkill for my use now.

I got into the tact RCS because I realized that I would not have the perfect room. My setup is always mixed use with my music and A/V for the rest of the family. This adds to my setup problems.

The last thing is that I am way too busy now to be constantly screwing with the system. Work has gotten really busy and I have been spending my free time doing many other things. When I want to change things in the system, I always really want to change the speakers. I don't know why. It's probably because it's usually the most dramatic and easiest change I can make.

Thanks for your continued support.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #14 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 06:08 pm »

The Zu speakers are fantastic close to walls. I've had Druids, Definition 1.5s and Pros very close (less than a foot) from the front walls with excellent results. The Druids are great for rock. If you paired them with a sizable amp and couple of subs I think they'd be outstanding. Druids aren't The Most Transparent speaker out there but frankly I believe transparency is NOT what you want for classic rock. I have a pair of Advent Maestros that are as opaque as a muddy river and sound freakin' awesome with Zep.

I would be more reserved about using the Definitions for rock. IN MY ROOM the Defs are significantly more edgy in the highly amplified/energized guitar range and can be tough to bear. This quality also makes them endearing with other music. With the TacT you would be able to tame the presence band pretty well - I used to be a TacTer. But, in my room these have never been great classic rock speakers despite their insane bass potential. Other owners I think would report otherwise but this is my experience.

Another thing is that both of these choices are a LOT different than others. They have a killer return policy but still aren't something I'd jump into without homework. Their choices on partnering equipment will probably be different so you should be prepared for possible changes elsewhere.

I wasn't going to jump into this one, but allowed proximity to the front wall is a particular strength of Zu.

Aside from that, they're the perfect speakers for you - go buy them today!

JP78 · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 08:24 pm »

trevor - i apologize if i came off rude, i just know a lot of audiophiles refuse to biamp and instead spend absurd amounts of money on monoblocks. but hey, to each their own.

the only speaker i have first hand experience with is the mbl 101b that i had many years back. i am thoroughly enthralled with the mbl sound, and look forward to owning a pair again sometime soon. for irregular rooms, i'd say you're hard pressed to mess with something like this. i'm fairly sure you could pick up a revision c for less than $10K, maybe even a revision d in times like this. i had a tubed preamplifier in the system, though, so i don't even know if you want to consider since you have the tact.

other members on these forums are running tact preamplifiers with big amps - maybe ask them for some direction?

best,

pocket4 · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 08:44 pm »

Trevor, if you don't want to bi-amp. Buy the subs with plate amps built into them. It's a great alternative. By using a active crossover you'll get the cohesiveness your looking for with all the slam and refinement you want. Good luck.

Trevor · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 Sep 2007, 08:52 pm »

No sweat JP. I didn't think you were rude at all. I just wanted to elaborate on my experience so that people can understand what I am looking for.

Trevor · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 12:31 am »

UPDATE - I went to listen to the Vandersteen Quatro and the Wilson Watt Puppy. I enjoyed the Quatro much more that the Wilsons. They were more engaging to me for my listening preferences. I really want to hear the 5A though. I think it would be better suited to my big room.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 Sep 2007, 03:07 am »

Quote from: Trevor on 15 Sep 2007, 12:31 am

UPDATE - I went to listen to the Vandersteen Quatro and the Wilson Watt Puppy. I enjoyed the Quatro much more that the Wilsons. They were more engaging to me for my listening preferences. I really want to hear the 5A though. I think it would be better suited to my big room.

Do you happen to live up near Boston, MA ? zybar/George (a member here) has a pair of Vandersteen 5A's....and experience with the TACT as well.