Effective? ... PZC Mini Corner Controller from Michael Green

kyyuan · « **on:** 1 Sep 2003, 07:56 pm »

Hi all,

Are these controllers effective? I'm aware of all the "issues" surrounding Michael Green. Please share your thoughts irrespective of Michael Green's reputation.

I understand Hantra used to own some of the PZC products.

Thanks much,

Ken

Hantra · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Sep 2003, 10:42 pm »

Quote

I understand Hantra used to own some of the PZC products.

Actually, I used to have 15 of these in my room. Aside from anything you may, or may not know about Mr. Green, my belief is that these devices do more harm to the music than good.

When I moved, I put all 15 up in my new room, and just went from there. Several weeks later, someone suggested that I remove them all, and then add them one at a time. I did just that, and I realized just how much these things hurt the sound.

When I put in the 4 in the corner, they actually made a pleasant difference, which is what I expected. The next one I put in the room, no matter where I put it, actually took away much more than it brought to the room. So, I went with the 4 corner controllers, and sold the rest.

Then I ordered 4 of 8th Nerves controllers for the corners. I replaced the PZC's with these, and there was an amazing difference.

I think the PZC's horn load the corners. They are very destructive too. They have too much absorption. You can take a good room, and make it dead as a doornail with PZC's.

The 8th Nerve stuff covers the entire corner, and is actually preventing most of that horn loading that occurred with the Green devices. I have since added some more 8th Nerve controllers, and find them much less destructive to the sound.

I have a feeling that PZC's would work much better with a different design, but I have no interest in redesigning them myself b/c I haven't the time. If you can find some dirt cheap, you may want to try them, but make sure you also try the 8th Nerve stuff. I like it much better, and it's less destructive to the sound.

L8r,

B

kyyuan · « **Reply #2 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 01:50 pm »

Hantra,

thanks for the response. The main reasons that I'm considering the PZC are (1) I'm trying not to employ any panels or pillow-like type of device and figure some type of effective corner-controllowers may accomplish that, and (2) I've found 4 PZC Mini Corners for about $150.

Of course, if the Corners aren't positively effective, then even $1.00 is too much. I have a loft with concrete floor (using a rug) and has a 14 foot ceiling. The dimensions are approximately 20'x20'x14'. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Ken

Hantra · « **Reply #3 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 02:39 pm »

Quote

The main reasons that I'm considering the PZC are (1) I'm trying not to employ any panels or pillow-like type of device and figure some type of effective corner-controllowers may accomplish that

What is your reasoning behind this? Why don't you want to use any "pillow-like" devices?

Are the ones you found MDF, or Cherry?

B

kyyuan · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 07:00 pm »

[What is your reasoning behind this? Why don't you want to use any "pillow-like" devices?

Are the ones you found MDF, or Cherry?

B[/quote]

As far as the pillow-like devices, I'm just not a big fan of them as they are not aesthetically pleasing (I'm not even married so no WAF). However, the corner pillows may be ok. I'm aware of 8th nerve and have exchanged e-mails will Bill. They seem like a nice bunch.

As far as the PZC goes, I've heard those are effective, may too effective based on your posts. Given my ceiling height, they may not be a bad idea. Nonethless, I'm certainly not wedded to PZC, but am just trying to explore other options. Basically, if I can get away with just using some type of corner controllers to get rid of slap echoes and reap other benefits, then I would be sufficiently satisfied (for now).

Thanks,

Ken

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 07:28 pm »

PS Audio detailed their building a dedicated listening room; wondered if their corner treatments appealed to you?? Certainly much more extensive, but it could do double duty.

http://www.psaudio.com/articles/listening_room_8.asp

Hantra · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 07:34 pm »

I understand your aesthetic concerns, and PZC's might look more like professional devices, but if the best treatment for echo is what you're looking for, IMO the PZC is not it. I have tried many, and wound up preferring the 8th Nerve stuff. It is not as destructive, and if it's 14 feet up, it is likely to disappear in the room much better than a PZC.

Keep in mind that the goal is to tame some echo, and equalize sme pressure. Your goal should not be to absorb all sound in that area. PZC's are reflective on one side, and I think wood sounds really great, but the design is flawed by the overstuffing, and by the distance the PZC hangs from the corner. It was originally designed to fit OVER another of MG's products (crown-moulding), and therefore puts THAT ahead of sound quality IMO. To get the best of a PZC, you have to use the crown moulding. Even then, it's still too absoptive for me. .

Let us know what you find works for you!

B

nathanm · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 10:39 pm »

Treating the corners alone may not kill the slap echo as the sound will still be bouncing between two hard, parallel surfaces. I've noticed this in my own room wherein foam bass traps in the corners did little to stop persistently pingy walls. (not that I thought they would, but it was just something I noticed during installing them) Just about any kind of object you can hang on the wall, preferably an absorbent or a reflective object with an irregular surface, will help to diffuse those reflections. If you don't have a lot of treatment then spread it out as much as possible. My living room has three 2x4' foam panels on the front and back walls and these were enough to quell most of the slap echo, which was so bad before that it actually obscured speech.

kyyuan · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Sep 2003, 02:15 pm »

Everyone...Thanks for your response. As always, members of this forum are always helpful and genuine (everyone?

j/k) Based on everyone I've read thus far, 8th Nerve just might be the source for some corners.

nathanm...I have some acoustical foam that I'll try between wall/ceiling.

Tonto...Thanks for the article offer. I've actually read it.

Once gain, thanks.

Ken

wilkins · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 11:22 am »

Hi Ken,

First off, I want to let you know that I work with Michael Green Audio.

Regarding the PZC's, they are our second generation products that were developed to offer more variable control than our pillow products(Roomtunes). Our pillow products came out 14 years ago and have since been copied by others. We still offer them as a lower cost solution for control and they are used by many audiophiles, schools, and churches.

The PZC's are a little bit more difficult to use as they are adjustable. Improper placement will yield improper results. If you decide to get the PZC's you found, feel free to give us a call for advice on placement and how to use them. 1-888-ROOMTUN

Bill Wilkins
www.michaelgreenaudio.com

Carlman · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 01:47 pm »

Just out of curiosity, who copied Michael Green's pillow design?

I've used the 8th Nerve stuff with incredible results. It's a no-brainer. If you don't like the way it looks, you can recover it with something else, make sure it's pulled very tight, and use a staple gun instead of pushpins for mounting. Most people's implementation of 8th Nerve product looks saggy which makes it look less neat. Also, recovering it with something that matches exactly would help make it blend as well.

I'm adding some crown molding based on 8th Nerve's design. I'm copying it. I've told Nathan and Kris that I have to because my wife won't let me do the pillow thing in this particular room. When I told them this, they offered to help and are answering questions along the way.... How's that for a great attitude! I've picked out the molding I'm going to use and now just have to start figuring out how to make it work the way I want.

Just one question, do I still need to cover primary reflective points with something? Or is the 8th Nerve product enough on its own? I can experiment but, just thought I'd ask.

My vote is for 8th Nerve and their methodologies. They work like you would not believe. Also, the customer service is the best I've experienced.

-Carl

JohnR · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 02:13 pm »

Carlman do u have pics of ur room setup? (Didn't see a gallery)

J

Hantra · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 02:13 pm »

Quote

do I still need to cover primary reflective points with something? Or is the 8th Nerve product enough on its own?

C:

I'd at least hit the first reflections. You can use seams for it. I have tried them in the exact reflection point, and in the center of the wall. I like it better at the first reflection point. .

HTH,

B

Carlman · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 02:52 pm »

No pics yet... I just finalized the room setup after moving. I guess it's now presentable enough to take a few shots. I'll take some (and post) within a month.

I have a couch that's the listening position, a fireplace on the left, a wall on the right, and the speakers on the front wall. There's lots of other odd things about the room but, the photos will be handy for that.

I have a canvas painting that's about 40x50" I could hang that on the solid wall on the right which would break up reflections. I was also going to stuff the back of the painting with sound absorptive material to see what that did.

Thanks for the tips. Can't wait to get started experimenting.

-Carl

Hantra · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 05:30 pm »

Hey C:

I can't wait to see what you come up with for treatment. I need to come down and take a listen now that you're all settled in.

BTW, are you going to Tony Rice on the 13th? You really ought to. It's quite an experience.

L8r,

B

Carlman · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 06:21 pm »

Hantra:
That weekend is totally out for a number of reasons... I'll talk to you later as to why... I was bummed when I read your post about it and realized I had to miss it.

Wilkins:
I guess if your product has been copied, you should be flattered... if the old saying holds true. This is just the first I've heard of this so, my curiosity is peaked. I have a good plan of attack on my room since my wife has ruled out so many options already, I'm pretty much stuck with building crown molding with some form of sound absorption material behind it. If I get to a point where I need a different plan, I'll seek new opinion.

Oh, by the way, I was at home for lunch today and the OneAC's were delivered while I was there. I hooked them up and they do indeed lower the noise in the lines. No FM, no bad scratchy hiss, nothing.. I did a quick listen to a good CD (Peter Gabriel's latest one) and it sounded slightly more detailed but, no change in anything else. Of course, it was tough to listen critically because I have a crew working on the exterior of the house banging nails and such. Not and ideal setting but, I could hear instantly that the noise was gone... very easy to determine that bit.

Hantra · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 10:17 pm »

Well I must be out of the loop. . What are the OneAC's? Point me to a thread?

Can't wait for the housewarming, and I understand about the TR show. . . You gotta go to the next one though. . .

Also Brian Sutton will be there in Oct.! He is even a bit faster than Tony, but he's no Tony. Very good though. . .

L8r,

B

Carlman · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 11:28 pm »

The 'OneAC' is the latest fad in line conditioning... where have you been?

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=4012

Hantra · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 11:38 pm »

Ohh dang! I read that too!!!

hehehe

I've been lost in Plinius-land! And watching the Jeopardy Million Dollar Challenge! Go Eric!!

I'll have to read it afterwards. .

Thx!

B

TomD · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Sep 2003, 05:38 am »

Anyone who says the PZCs don't work, doesn't know how to use them. IMO they are the best acousitcal products out there. My room sounds incredible.

I consistantly get comments like " best system I've ever heard" when people come over to listen.