[Daygloworange]

how does it translate to a positive in the context of this thread when most won't recognize it as something apart from the whole?

Subconsciously it does. There are many European films that don't use music at all, and it makes quite a difference in the way a film comes across (Sometimes it is for the better).

But overall I think music adds a very positive elements to film.

I have been a big John Williams fan for many years, the guy has written some amazing music over the years.

Cheers

[AdamM]

While that may be true (I'm not disputing it), what difference does it make if the very transparency that makes it so effective results in the majority being blithely ignorant of is presence, much less its significance? 

IOW, regardless of how effective a particular music sequence in a movie or game may be in eliciting the desired response, how does it translate to a positive in the context of this thread when most won't recognize it as something apart from the whole?

Really well said DU.  I guess the point of this thread is "Is hifi dead?"  and my point is something like "No, since audio is either 100% or 50% of the entertainment package"  Entertainment isn't going anywhere.  In fact, more is happening in the home with home theaters and videogames.

Movies have blu-ray and HD DVD, with their improved audio.  Games are now big and taking audio very seriously.  There's a bright future for hifi !  Until we have Smell-o-vision or Taste-o-lux, audio is one of the only two senses we can get media for!

I'm not sure what awareness of separating audio out of the package provides for us hifi guys, or Joe consumer.  What's wrong with just seeing the whole?  People will want to accurately reproduce whatever that is, and good audio is a massive part of that.

My parents got a big stereo when i was a kid because that was the entertainment thing to get.  Now it's a big screen and a home theater rig.

Maybe what we're all thinking and not saying is:

Are High Fidelity music only systems without a display dead?

If you consider Hifi as 'without a television screen involved', then yeah, i think those days are somewhat numbered.

Hifi works with a screen though.  Sure, it's different, but it's still hifi. It just grew legs and is now walking on land.

/A

[Mike Dzurko]

Here's where you guys are all missing the boat as far as the future
goes....

When many of us were kids, the hifi thing was a boys only thing.

Nowdays, girls are just as into technology as boys are.  I see it
with my daughters friends all the time.  They have laptops, iPods
and slammed Honda civics with big exhausts that aren't their
boyfreinds cars.

Know what this means?  No more having to sneak electronics
purchases past the wife or girlfriend any more!

When your wife or girlfreind wants a new pair of speakers
or a 60" plasma, that's an easy sell...

Not like the old days at all. 

The new generation of guys has it a lot easier than us old timers!!!

Well put Jeff . . . funny, but we just ended up w/ a 60" Plasma because when lookinng, my wife thought the 50" was too small! I was set to go 50" until I took her into the local BB and within 10 minutes she had decided that we needed at least 60" and "who cares it costs more, just get a good one".  . . .  fast forward, and within 10 minutes of it being in our home, her comment is, "looks great, but sounds terrible, when are you going to get a system hooked up?" Yes, I'm a lucky guy

As far as the whole topic goes, as a consumer - direct manufacturer it seems that the strictly two-channel crowd is smaller than it was say 10-15 years ago, but not by a lot . . . . never has been that big. And as has been mentioned, there is definitely a demand for super high-end products, not just in the U.S. but world wide. However, the number of folks who will spend money on a good sounding system to send music throughout the house or to be part of the video experience has gone way up. No they're not purists and often don't care a lot about the specific technology . . . but they do want it to sound good and are willing to spend the money to make it happen.  We who grew up with and never fell out of love with two-channel don't help our cause by looking down our noses at those who are trying to get good sound for HT, games, whole house etc. 

[TONEPUB]

Hey Mike:

Good one!

Another important thing to remember with regards to HT is that because of
ever dropping screen prices, people are going back to spending a lot more
on the associated system, so the quality is going back up!!

Back when a 42 inch plasma was 6-10k, people scrimped on the sound to get
the screen.

I saw a lot of great multichannel systems at CEDIA that had excellent sound
as well.

Every mfr. I spoke to said that if they could continue to do well in HT they
will continue to support the 2ch world because that's where they all came from.

In the end I think a healthy HT market means we will still be able to get what
we want for a long time to come.  It's not as bleak as you might think!

[opnly bafld]

Actually my point was, does it really matter if music is in something (movies-video games-etc.) when for many (most) people the importance of it is insignificant.
Really nothing to do with equipment or format just love of music.
I have never heard a video game kid talk about music in the game, sound effects yes, music no.

I think music is very important, even if when it's not called out specifically.  Few people call out the colour palettes in movies, but we feel the evil and coldness in a Disney flick when the bad guys are on the screen.  We feel the harshness of NYC in the movie 'Traffic' and the warmth of Mexico.  Deliberate colour use to shape an experience.  Our eye goes to Amélie in that movie, because she's wearing red on a green background.  Few people say 'Nice use of hue to direct the eye', but everyone looks where they should.  The use of longer lenses to convey tension, cropping someone off at the chin to make them seem tough, etc. etc.

Good directors, DOP's, composers have an arsenal of tricks which when used in concert all work subconsciously to convey emotion.

Heck, some things like editing are best when you don't notice them!

So just because people don't mention it, doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a very real and important part of the experience.

/A

Misunderstood again.
I give up.

Adam
Last try,
I wasn't saying the music is unimportant for the context, but as an example, if 100 people hear Mozart (this applies to any artist) in various movies and commercials and only one either knows it is Mozart or cares enough to find out, the music is (apparently) unimportant to the rest.

Now going back to macrojack's comment
"AdamM - That's the first convincing argument I've read but it reinforces a claim I made earlier that the trend has moved away from music and into sound effects".

My posts have been to back this statement up.
IMO music in movies and video games is a very low percentage of the overall experience and of such little significance to most people so as to be meaningless. In other words the music could be replaced with different music and most would not notice or care.
Try that with a music lover and see what happens. 

Lin

[opnly bafld]

Maybe what we're all thinking and not saying is:

Are High Fidelity music only systems without a display dead?

If you consider Hifi as 'without a television screen involved', then yeah, i think those days are somewhat numbered.

Hifi works with a screen though.  Sure, it's different, but it's still hifi. It just grew legs and is now walking on land.

/A

As it stands right now and for the foreseeable future, if the only music I could listen to HAD to be something from the DVD (multimedia) choices available, I would have a different hobby. 
There is not even close to enough quality choices for me.

Lin

PS  and even if that was all I could listen to, the video display would still be off.

[WEEZ]

I'm with Lin.

Video is a different experience than audio. Not to be confused with each other.

WEEZ

[AdamM]

Aw sorry for the misinterpretation.  I wrote that pretty late last night in a bit on an insomniac moment. Apologies for the frustration!

It seems your point is about credit to the artist?  If the consumer doesn't know the name of the talent, it's now invalid and replaceable?

Ok so most kids think "Star Wars is cool"  Not,  "Wow, John Williams is a great composer"  So could we switch out John for Hans Zimmer and still have 'Star Wars'?  I don't think so.  Good? sure.  It would be no where near the same though

IMO music in movies and video games is a very low percentage of the overall experience and of such little significance to most people so as to be meaningless.

It's not a low percentage of the experience at all and i completely disagree with you on that and think that most in either industry (games/movies) would too.  In the games industry people say it's 50%.  For movies, it's clearly also extremely significant.  Know what John Williams charges?  It's crazy.  Good musicians and composers will be in demand by the people who know how important that is. Audio is 50% of the experience.  Watch Star Wars on mute and see how heavy it feels.

So if the consumer doesn't know directly who the talent is, that doesn't significantly undermine their importance or value whatsoever.  The people putting the 'whole' together will seek out and pay for the key talent to put it together.

I think your point is that the music could be switched out, if replaced by something of equal quality?    ?

You probably don't know who designed the engine in your car.  Could we switch it out to another engine and you not notice?  Probably not. You might have even bought that car because you like the engine.  Could we switch it out with an engine of similar quality and you still be happy?

What if we switched out your Led Zeppelin collection with something of equal quality?

To be honest, i still don't get your point

I am a music lover, and you can't switch out my Zeppelin, my John Williams from Star Wars, my Michael Gondry from music videos, my camera lenses.  They all have qualities that i seek because of the people that put them together, weather i know all their names or not.

When David Lee Roth left Van Halen, did you still like them?

[AdamM]

As it stands right now and for the foreseeable future, if the only music I could listen to HAD to be something from the DVD (multimedia) choices available, I would have a different hobby. 
There is not even close to enough quality choices for me.

Lin

PS  and even if that was all I could listen to, the video display would still be off.

I'm with you there, i love my 2 channel audio-only system.  This topic isn't about us old timers staying trendy and adapting, it's about weather hifi is dead or not.  Hifi is NOT going to die.  I'm not as certain about how many of us stuck-in-our-ways 2 channel 'TV's turned off' guys are gonna roll with the times

[TONEPUB]

Well, I'm one two channel guy whos gonna roll with it.

I have a great two channel system that I've taken as far as I can take
it without buying a 100 thousand dollar turntable, and that's not gonna
happen.

I'm not going to abandon my 2ch system, I'm just going to build an
HT system in the living room..

Most hardcore 2ch people I know have both.  If I'm going to watch movies,
Id rather have good sound as well!

I still meet a lot of people with dedicated 2ch setups and have met a lot
of young people interested in pursuing it, so I guess my vision is not as
dark as it is for some of you.

Back when it was about four bucks to go to the movies, I had no interest
in HT.  Now that taking the fam and a freind to the movies costs over a
hundred dollars with drinks and snacks, putting that experience in my
living room is way more interesting than it used to be.

But I for one, would never abandon 2ch.  I still like the musical presentation
better than 5.1 for music...

[AdamM]

As it stands right now and for the foreseeable future, if the only music I could listen to HAD to be something from the DVD (multimedia) choices available, I would have a different hobby. 
There is not even close to enough quality choices for me.

How scary is it when you read something like this: "On Itunes Only!"  "Only available on our website!"  or any other kind of compressed-only format release...?

That is very frightening indeed.  So far, the artists doing that kind of thing aren't stuff i'm interested in so it's only scary in concept.

What's it going to be like if/when a desired recording is only released in mp3?

I'll packup my vinyl and move to the hills.  Ok, no, but i will swear and shake my fist a bunch.

[opnly bafld]

Adam,
That is a bit unfair taking one of the most recognizable pieces of movie music, I can counter with the thousands of other movies that you have no clue as to who wrote the music.
IMO if somebody other that John Williams would have done the score for Star Wars today you would be saying "could you imagine Star Wars without whoever's music".
It is because of the MOVIE that the music is recognized by so many.

As concise as I know how to be with this: The new multimedias are not developed for music and music lovers.
DVD HD and Blueray were developed for better picture quality not because movie lovers were unhappy with DD sound. The possibility of better sound may be a byproduct but I haven't seen any music released on these new formats.
Others(mp3 whatever) exist because of convenience.
Vinyl and CD exist because of music.
I am not interested in all the other things in multimedia, I like good music and yes I have a pretty good idea where everything is leading for me- I don't watch much TV anymore because I don't like much of what is POPULAR.


Here is another question I thought of yesterday seeing all the posts about more people doing something = it has to be good.

Everybody has a cell phone and many are on it most of the day from what I see.
Does this popularity mean that communication is better than before cell phones?

Lin

[IronLion]

This thread has taken a wild tangent into an abyss.

[opnly bafld]

This thread has taken a wild tangent into an abyss.

Gotta love comments like this.
If you are in a group of people talking about something you are not interested in, do you simply walk away or do you say "This conversation has taken a wild tangent into an abyss"? 

Lin

[Daygloworange]

IMO if somebody other that John Williams would have done the score for Star Wars today you would be saying "could you imagine Star Wars without whoever's music".
It is because of the MOVIE that the music is recognized by so many.

I'd disagree with that. John Williams is easily the most prolific movie composer because he does an amazing job scoring movies.

The theme to the original "Rocky" movie was written by Frank Stallone, Sylvester's brother. Both were nobody's at the time. It's a powerful piece of music that really captured the triumph that that movie represents.

I agree with Adam on the Star Wars soundtrack. It's an exceptional one. A very climactic and tension filled soundtrack.

Cheers

[opnly bafld]

I agree with Adam on the Star Wars soundtrack. It's an exceptional one. A very climactic and tension filled soundtrack.

Cheers

Only John Williams does that? 
I ask you without the respective movies how popular would the scores have been?
Again music exists just because, movie scores exist because of the movie.
Lin 

[IronLion]

I usually say, "What the f*ck are you all talking about?", then I punch the nearest person (person that would have the best chance of catching me in a foot race) in the ear and sprint away. 

This thread has taken a wild tangent into an abyss.

Gotta love comments like this.
If you are in a group of people talking about something you are not interested in, do you simply walk away or do you say "This conversation has taken a wild tangent into an abyss"? 

Lin

[opnly bafld]

I usually say, "What the f*ck are you all talking about?", then I punch the nearest person (person that would have the best chance of catching me in a foot race) in the ear and sprint away. 

This thread has taken a wild tangent into an abyss.

Gotta love comments like this.
If you are in a group of people talking about something you are not interested in, do you simply walk away or do you say "This conversation has taken a wild tangent into an abyss"? 

Lin

Good one IronLion 

[TONEPUB]

There is not even close to enough quality choices for me.

Lin

PS  and even if that was all I could listen to, the video display would still be off.

So what would all the "neccessary quality choices for you" be?

Just curious....

[Daygloworange]

Only John Williams does that? 

I never said anything to imply that.

I ask you without the respective movies how popular would the scores have been?

Probably not as well know. So what?  If it weren't for MTV, Shania Twain wouldn't exist.

You're equating popularity with merit. It makes for bad math.

What's popular is not always good, and what's good is not always popular.

Again music exists just because, movie scores exist because of the movie.

So what? What's the difference? Does that make the music composed in movies of lesser merit?

There are plenty of timeless melodies that were composed for movies.

And plenty of centuries old classical pieces that were used as theme music for movies.

It's all music.

Cheers