[Aether Audio]

Steve,

I don't know why Dave Belles doesn't like the new TP/Mundorf with his amp?

It's not the amp...or even likely the preamp that is the problem.  You ever spun a record into your Rev's?  I didn't think so.  If that's all you ever tried though you'd likely feel the same as Dave... and never would have bought them.  Let's see a theoretical dynamic range of 60dB max - and that's with virgin vinyl that's so toxic the EPA won't let it be made in the USA. 

Then... Recording side: Added EQ and compression before the cutter amp, cutter amp distortion, cutter head distortion, master lacquer to mother transfer errors, mother to stamper errors and stamper to final pressing errors. 

Playback: Stylus distortion, cartridge distortion, decreasing effective stylus speed/increasing distortion as the stylus moves toward the center of the record, tracking errors, permanent deterioration of the disc after every play and high gain RIAA equalizer/phono stage distortion.

Is this an indictment of vinyl?  No - not if your into the "Mondo" level playback equipment and are playing Mondo level pressings.  Going with the most pristine level of vinyl source material and playback equipment can mitigate a lot of those inherent problems and sound extremely good.  I know, I've heard it myself.  But that's what it takes to hit that level of performance.  Look at the best stuff...just a turntable without an arm or cartridge can easily cost $10K+.  The question one has to ask is if Dave is using $10K + worth of vinyl playback gear.  I don't know...but I seriously doubt it.  I do know this though, if he's not I would fully expect him or anyone to make the same observations on our stuff. 

See you in a couple of weeks Steve!

-Bob

PS.  Well... I should add that one needs to use gear that "sounds" like it would cost that much anyway - whether it really does or not.  Yes...as I was writing I saw your post Bill   In your case I'm sure your rig performs as outlined above.  Then again, how many different pieces of gear have you tried and how many different combinations have you assembled over the years?  Having as much experience as you do with all kinds of different equipment helps you to select the best sounding stuff.  When one works in a vacuum and only with the gear one designs themselves, one might never come to that level of knowledge.  Hence...as always...THE SPEAKER IS TO BLAME!!!  Being at the end of the chain it deserves most of the credit when the sound is good... and it gets ALL of the blame when the sound is bad.  Oh well... just another day in the life of a speaker designer.

[lonewolfny42]

Bob....

A few comments....consider it....constructive criticism....

Yeah...looks like the Belles room is a "no go" for now.

Thats too bad....and very disappointing for a number of reasons....

First...you produce some very fine speakers, which many have not heard. This show would of been a good opportunity for those AC members going to finally hear them. Looks like a big turnout at the show this year.

Your customers (SP Tech owners) praise these speakers...and others have questions. They do get answers here on AC in your circle (and in PM's)....but your business website is "out of date".... (I do know your working on it....but its going very slow...been "out of date" for awhile... )

And recently....you mentioned....a price increase is coming. It's a business...things go up.....nothing wrong with that....you can't give things away...

But........a higher price....very few hearing the speakers....not a lot of info on the site....it all adds up to a potential customer.....second thoughts ?

It reminds of the story about rainbows....the rainbow has a place in legend owing to its beauty and the historical difficulty in explaining the phenomenon.

The Irish leprechaun's secret hiding place for his pot of gold is usually said to be at the end of the rainbow. This place is impossible to reach, because the rainbow is an optical effect which depends on the location of the viewer. When walking towards the end of a rainbow, it will move further away.

                                       Chris

[Aether Audio]

Chris,

Unless I've been EXTREMELY mislead... your about to see some very big changes regarding SP Tech and some very exciting opportunities/new relationships for us that will be announced before the end of this year - maybe sooner than even I think - and I'm being conservative in the above time estimation.  All of this will directly address all of your points above.  If it all falls through, well... let's just say we'll work real fast to finish the existing orders.  After that... probably new horizons for Bob.

Take care,
-Bob

[Bill Baker]

Then again, how many different pieces of gear have you tried and how many different combinations have you assembled over the years?  Having as much experience as you do with all kinds of different equipment helps you to select the best sounding stuff.  When one works in a vacuum and only with the gear one designs themselves, one might never come to that level of knowledge.  Hence...as always...THE SPEAKER IS TO BLAME!!!  Being at the end of the chain it deserves most of the credit when the sound is good... and it gets ALL of the blame when the sound is bad.  Oh well... just another day in the life of a speaker designer.

 Okay, I guess you're right in that I have the opportunity to have alot of gear on hand and be able to put together a decent system and yes, it is usually after some trial and error. Not all components synergize everytime.

 I am a vinyl enthusiast but as you mention Bob, good vinyl is a pain in the ass and usually quite expensive.

 I will tell you that one of your Mini customers only listens to vinyl. On the positive side of this, he is also my customer and all his equipment is stuff that I custom built for him and have had personal experience with your speakers (albeit the older design), but there is synergy.
 After Oct. 1st, he will be running a pair of highly modified Hurricanes being driven by a ModWright 9.0SE. I think these should make the Mini's sing  I think the weak link right now is his phono stage and after hearing the combination, he may be calling upon me once again. Don't worry Mr. C., I'll take care of you

[lonewolfny42]

Chris,

Unless I've been EXTREMELY mislead... your about to see some very big changes regarding SP Tech and some very exciting opportunities/new relationships for us that will be announced before the end of this year - maybe sooner than even I think - and I'm being conservative in the above time estimation.  All of this will directly address all of your points above.  If it all falls through, well... let's just say we'll work real fast to finish the existing orders.  After that... probably new horizons for Bob.

Take care,
-Bob

OK Bob....good luck....

[Karsten]

I don't consider vinyl to be a real problem with SP tech speakers, if it is set up right.  I doubt that this is the real problem Dave is facing. The speakers are usually the link in the chain with most coloration to the signal and it is natural to trim the front end to compensate for some issues. When inserting a new set of speakers, especially as neutral and revealing as the SP are, it can easily be a quite dramatic change to the entire tonal balance of the system. Dave is a bit stressed up to the show so I guess it is easier and safer for him to use what he knows. I'm quite sure that he will get along with the Timepieces eventually.

Personally I'm not using vinyl, but I know it can sound good. However vinyl will never be able to show the true dynamic potential in the these speakers, it is quite dramatic....

Karsten

[reefrus]

Hi Bob,
I'll see you in a couple of weeks. Your first pair of Revelation is still kicking and screaming.


 

[Double Ugly]

I don't consider vinyl to be a real problem with SP tech speakers, if it is set up right.  I doubt that this is the real problem Dave is facing. The speakers are usually the link in the chain with most coloration to the signal and it is natural to trim the front end to compensate for some issues. When inserting a new set of speakers, especially as neutral and revealing as the SP are, it can easily be a quite dramatic change to the entire tonal balance of the system. Dave is a bit stressed up to the show so I guess it is easier and safer for him to use what he knows. I'm quite sure that he will get along with the Timepieces eventually.

Personally I'm not using vinyl, but I know it can sound good. However vinyl will never be able to show the true dynamic potential in the these speakers, it is quite dramatic....

Karsten

I agree with most of what you said, Karsten, and I've no doubt Dave is under a great deal of stress at the moment.  However...

...lacking in detail and resolution?!?  No sir, no way.  I've never, ever heard those words used to describe Bob's speakers, even from those who didn't find SP Techs to be their cup o' tea.  To a man (and a few women), each and every person with whom I've listened or to whom I've spoken after listening to SP Technology speakers has mentioned the high degree of detail and resolution.

Perhaps the most well-known instance is when record label owner/recording guru Jim Merod cried - well, I guess "tears welled in his eyes" would be more accurate - while listening to his own recordings via a pair of Revelations driven by one of Dave's amps at last year's THE Show.  And no, the tears weren't the result of shattered eardrums. 

Click here for the story (go to the next-to-last photo) and here's a picture of the system Jim heard (sans Timepieces, of course) -


Musical truthfulness; The SP Technology Revelation MR-1

The text Greg Weaver chose to accompany the photo is noteworthy, as is the silver Belles 350A amplifier resting just above what appears to be an Adept Response power conditioner.  The pièce de résistance, though, is what Jim said after the show - “I’ve never heard a speaker that reproduces all the music -- all the ambient information I strive to capture in my recordings -- until I heard SP TECH’s ‘Revelation MR-1’”

Doesn't quite mesh with Dave's assessment, does it?  I realize Jim listened to Revelations and Dave's referencing Timepieces, but they aren't that different.  Add a second woofer, attach a T-line and presto, you have yourself a Revelation.

I'm with you on vinyl, and if my current room was large enough, I'd have a very nice vinyl source.  I've been privileged to hear some pretty amazing vinyl-based systems, and though I doubt Dave has the equivalent of some I've heard, his is probably a decent set-up.

So he won't hear the full dynamic capability of the speakers; alright, I can understand that, and I'm OK with it.  Dynamics will probably still be superior to a great many speakers.  I can also wrap my arms around the fact that Bob's speakers may represent so great a change from the established norm that "the entire tonal balance of the system" is altered.  I'd say almost every first-time SP Tech owner deals with that to a degree.  I know I did.  BUT...

...lacking in detail and resolution?!?

I don't get it, my friend, I truly don't.  I'm in shock someone actually said that.

IMO, one of these three is a virtual certainty -

• One or both of Bob's speakers were damaged in transit,
• Dave has the speakers wired out of phase (done that a time or two myself ), or
• Dave's speakers have a frequency response that is the antithesis of SP Tech speakers (which are essentially flat).

If the latter, I suspect Dave has become very accustomed to listening to a speaker that emphasizes the midrange, maybe a lot.  If that's the case, I can almost understand it, but I'm still not quite there.

If I had to guess, I'd say something is broken, but it no longer matters.   

I apologize, Karsten.  I know you're already familiar with most or all of what I've said, and you've had your fair share of similar experiences.  I think I just needed to get it off my chest.

Take care, wish you could make it to Denver this year.

[Steve]

Hi Bob and Gents,

     I had the opportunity to hear the Continuums and Belles ref 350A amp at Earlmacs about 1 1/2 years ago, and the combo was outstanding to say the least.

Good wishes on continued success Bob.









     

[thetaalpha970]

I'm definitely hearing some unacceptable harshness with vinyl that I wasn't hearing before. It's differs in intensity from recording to recording, but it's always there. I know vinyl isn't perfect, but there's often so much distortion that it's hard for me to believe it's all inherently there. Besides, there is a tangible and palpable quality to analog which I have never heard on CD or DVD...but I don't think the speakers are to blame

Anything goes but my Timepieces. Excellent speakers. But wouldn't it be outrageous for any of us to speak for Dave Belles? I'd like to hear more from him.

Old system: Michell Gyro SE MKII, Bellari Phono with NOS Telefunken, Zvex ImpAmp, Paradigm Studio 40 V3.

New system: Gyro SE MkII, Bellari Phono, Odyssey Mono Extreme "Full Gary", SP Timepiece 2.1 with Mundorf.

Thanks for your help...

P.S. I've been turning the amps off and on to connect and disconnect the preamp from the power strip. Maybe this has something to do with it. 

[Aether Audio]

thetaalpha970,

I know vinyl isn't perfect, but there's often so much distortion that it's hard for me to believe it's all inherently there.

Uh, hmm... I hate to tell you, but... it IS all inherently there.  

To one degree or another - it always has been since Edison spun his first cylinder.  As I've said before, it's a real testimony to the genius of the man that records can sound as good as they have the potential to and that the format has lasted this long.  But... there's a reason some pencil necked geek with a pocket protector invented the CD.   They may still have issues as compared to the "warmth" of analog, but regarding distortion (in particular), resolution and detail - there really is no comparison.  In fact, it's my belief that the warmth issue has more to do with everything from the first ADC after the mic to everything else in the recording chain that comes before pressing the final CD - not the CD/DVD format itself.

Just imagine the sound we'll be getting once the new digital formats have had even half the time to mature as vinyl has.  IMHO, the further we get down that road, the more SP Tech products will be appreciated. 

Good luck,
-Bob

[thetaalpha970]

Ok Ok, here we go...

Yes. Everything you said in the earlier post can and does happen with vinyl. And while I don't have 10k worth of equipment, I don't think what I'm listening to quite fits the description of what you're referring to...or maybe it does. First of all, while all of this is true, you also infer in your earlier post that digital formats aren't quite as mature as analog. Analog is still evolving too, and has come a long way from the Edison days of recording to playback. Distortions aside, to my ears, it has a liveliness in respect to spatial characteristics, soundstaging, and detail I've not heard from digital. There's something to be said about taking a continous analog wave and converting it into discontinous 1s and 0s. It's like pouring a glass of water versus pouring a glass of tiny, tiny ice cubes. I may not even be able to hear a difference, but I'll be damned if I can't percieve one.

P.S. Bob, you should have me drive a truckload of Timepieces up to AES in New York. I bought these speakers to mix records as well as listen to them.

[Double Ugly]

Distortions aside, to my ears, it has a liveliness in respect to spatial characteristics, soundstaging, and detail I've not heard from digital. There's something to be said about taking a continous analog wave and converting it into discontinous 1s and 0s. It's like pouring a glass of water versus pouring a glass of tiny, tiny ice cubes. I may not even be able to hear a difference, but I'll be damned if I can't percieve one.

If you haven't had an opportunity yet, you may want to consider auditioning a Bolder-modified SB and Ultimate PS.  I think you may find that many of those things you find missing - or things present that shouldn't be - from digital playback will be more to your liking.  IME, probably surprisingly so.

As I've said before, YMMV, but I doubt it. 

[Aether Audio]

thetaalpha970,

P.S. Bob, you should have me drive a truckload of Timepieces up to AES in New York. I bought these speakers to mix records as well as listen to them.

If I had a truck load...

AES?  Now you're talking.   Those guys would love them - I'd think/hope

-Bob