[Scott F.]

Hiya Paul,

Just thought you might want to post the link to the article up at ETM.

The Sentinel at ETM

Very nice job on the design 

[PaulHilgeman]

Thanks Scott,

Couldn't believe my eyes with six 4.5's!!!

-Paul

[Scott F.]

Audioexcels,

I'm not sure what you are getting at with the Maggie's. When compared to the Sentinels, they really are two completely different animals. I thought I was pretty clear in how I stated that....maybe not though. I'm not sure I agree with you about Maggies not doing bass. The ones I've heard do bass quite well, but hat may be a personal preference. Maggie's just can't play very loud before they start slapping. 90-95db is about all you can get out of them before they start to compress. This is absolutely fine for those that enjoy their sound (I count myself in that group).   

When it comes to the JoLida, not many people have experience with the factory modified 102B. I was on the phone with Mike Allen just yesterday and he mentioned that there haven't been many (if any) sold here in the States. Most of them have gone overseas. That said, the modified 102b sounds nothing like a stock unit. I have paired this particular amp with some of the most unlikely speakers you could imagine and it has never failed to impress me. The Sentinels ranked right up there on the "potential mismatch" scale. Though some may not want to believe it worked....it did....and it sounded marvelous. That is very telling about the design of this little amp and (more so) should let people know just how good the output iron is on that amp. Plus the main room I used it in is well isolated and has an NC rating of 33 (measured and verified with my Sencore 295c). That means I didn't need a lot of SPL's to overcome background noise in my house. Does the modified 102b have SPL limitations with the Sentinel's? Sure it does but as I mentioned, it made for a great match for the Sentinels (IMO). Remember, some people don't listen at volumes much above 85db in which case, this combo would be absolutely perfect.

When it comes to the Odyssey amp, I think you will find there are quite a few people that feel it would make a fine match to the Sentinels. Granted, it isn't a Krell or Levinson (or insert the name of your favorite SS amp) but it definitely isn't an Adcom or Rotel either (sorry to you Adcom and Rotel owners, I own both BTW). The Khartago is a fine little amp that revealed how good the Sentinel's can sound when you apply some current to them. Besides, I am a self admitted tube-aholic. Worse yet, I'm a SET freak. Unfortunately I don't have monster, Class A, solid state amp that I use for reviews. I'm just grateful that Klaus was kind enough to let me use his amp specifically for articles like this one.

As you read, I tried these speakers in three different rooms with three different amps. In the Grape room I used the JoLida and the Odyssey, the Redrum I used the Radii's, the JoLida and the Odyssey and in the Blue Room I only used the Odyssey due to the total volume. Granted, I didn't write about each amp in every room but I did use them in that fashion. I feel it is important that writers try speakers in different rooms and with different gear so they can write about the differing room and gear interactions. I think this give the people that read the articles a much better feel for how something may sound in their room. Even though the gear we use may not be the exact model they have, they may be able to find something that closely resembles their particular situation. I just count my lucky stars that my wife lets me use our spare rooms for audio gear.



(edited the content to reflect the misconception to a previous post that has since been deleted)

[MerRev]

I personally have thoroughly enjoyed the little Jolida 102 at every turn.  This little integrated has wowed me with the Altec Bolero's, Meadowlark Osprey's, Musica Bella's, and the Odyssey Epipheny's; however, the most difficult to believe is having it drive a pair of beautiful sounding (10k) Teresonic Ingenium's.  The little amp conveyed the detailed nuances that make single driver designs so much fun and plenty of drive to keep the mojo in the music.  It may be the EL84 sound but whatever it is I'm sold on this little integrated. 
                                                                           Merrev

[EProvenzano]

Coincidentally, I'm running a Jolida 801A into my Ronin's and I'm delighted with it!
I had a recent "itch" that needed scratching, so I'm reconfiguring the Ronins into bi-amp mode with solid-state on the woofers...but more on that later 

I rather enjoyed the review 

[Audioexcels]

Audioexcels,

I'm not sure what you are getting at with the Maggie's. When compared to the Sentinels, they are completely two different animals. I thought I was pretty clear in how I stated that....maybe not though. Second, I completely disagree with you about Maggies not doing bass. Every pair I've heard does bass quite well, they just don't play very loud before they start slapping. 90-95db is about all you can get out of them before they start to compress and begin to slap. This is absolutely fine for many, many people. Again, I thought I made that fairly clear. 

When it comes to the JoLida, I doubt seriously you have any experience with the factory modified 102B. I was on the phone with Mike Allen just yesterday and he mentioned that there haven't been many (if any) sold here in the States. Most of them have gone overseas. That said, the modified 102b sounds nothing like a stock unit. I have paired this particular amp with some of the most unlikely speakers you could imagine and it has never failed to impress me. The Sentinels ranked right up there on the "potential mismatch" scale. Though you (and others) may not want to believe it worked....it did....and it sounded marvelous. That is very telling about the design of this little amp and (more so) should let you know just how good the output iron is on that amp. Not to mention the main room I used it in is well isolated and has an NC rating of 33 (measured and verified with my Sencore 295c). That means I didn't need a lot of SPL's to overcome background noise in my house. Does the modified 102b have SPL limitations with the Sentinel's? Sure it does but that doesn't mean that it can't be a good match for the speakers. Remember, some people don't listen at volumes much above 85db in which case, this combo would be absolutely perfect.

When it comes to the Odyssey amp, I think you will find there are quite a few people that will completely disagree with your assessment. Granted, it isn't a Krell or Levinson (or insert the name of your favorite sand amp) but it sure as hell isn't an Adcom or Rotel either. The Khartago (regardless of your opinion) is a fine little amp that more than showed how good the Sentinel's can sound when you apply some current to them. Besides, I am a self admitted tube-aholic. Worse yet, I'm a SET freak. I don't have monster, Class A, solid state amps that I use for reviews. I'm just grateful that Klaus was kind enough to let me use his amp specifically for articles like this one.

Bottom line is, I think I go above and beyond in my articles. As you read, I tried these speakers in three different rooms with three different amps. In the Grape room I used the JoLida and the Odyssey, the Redrum I used the Radii's, the JoLida and the Odyssey and in the Blue Room I only used the Odyssey due to the total volume. Granted, I didn't write about each amp in every room but I did use them in that fashion. All of this takes quite a bit of time and effort. To simply dismiss without ever having set foot in my home or listening to any of the system setups makes it pure conjecture on your behalf. Besides, if you are actually a fan of Paul's speakers, why would you make this type of contentious post in his circle?

Sorry about this one Paul. Feel free to delete my post if you feel it is inappropriate. I will completely understand.

Scott,

Whenever I say something, I always wish the negative aspects to be taken with a grain of salt and the positive ones to be taken with everything there is to take in.  I will make this brief:

1) You out-did the regulars and provided three different rooms/scenarios for the review.  This in itself is wonderful and is how "every" reviewer should do a speaker review.  Afterall, what may sound good in one room, or what may sound like this and that in one room may not sound the same way in another room.  I know that's the case anytime I have placed speakers in one room and moved them to a different room.

2) I felt the problematic aspect of the review was not having other similar speakers for a comparitive basis.  In other words, just as you put it, the Maggies (though not really used as a direct comparison to the Sentinel for the review) are two different categories.  One is a large full range speaker.  The other is a compact three way.  I think having other speakers that try and achieve the "compact" full-range of the music, even monitors, would be good for using in the review.  I know a TON of floorstanding two way monitors that have reviewers claiming they are similar to a three-way speaker, but just do not produce the levels of SPL, etc. etc...This is really the "only" flaw in the review IMHO...not having other speakers, price no option, to do a side by side comparison.  Maybe a $500 speaker sounds better...maybe a 30K speaker sounds worst.

3) I should not have put any emphasis on the amplifiers involved.  The Jolida, a push-pull amp, already sets it behind an equally well designed SET type amp (note...a properly implemented push-pull will sound better than poorly implemented-cost no object SET amp), but at the same time, has plenty of power to power the Sentinel.  No, I have not heard the speaker nor the amp, but going on the fact that some modified Dynaco MKIII's running in SET mode with 30 watts a side can power the Ronins very loud leaves me knowing a solid 25 per side should be plenty.  The Oddyssey or "any" decent solid state amp with sufficient enough power would obviously drive the Sentinel out to its maximum potential.  Whether you prefer the Jolida at lower levels vs. the transistor amp at louder levels is another story.  Just as the Maggies cannot be powered out so loudly as the Sentinel can be, it has incredible sound quality up to its limits and this in itself is worth having them over another speaker that can get much louder, but does not give you the level of sound fidelity the Maggies do.

4) Get some "real" subs and have them equalized and room corrected.  It doesn't matter if they are in a sealed, ported, bass reflex, TL, etc...I know for a fact that they would provide substantial authority over the Maggie bass while giving up no detail loss.  However, if you are used to "ok" bass, of course the Maggie bass will sound better.  Maggies need room correction to sound their best.  They have been scientifically measured and look exceptional on paper, but they do not have this same sound in life.  They sound like they have a bit of a "mask" over them.  My friends and I have attributed this to something in the upper part of the spectrum, though we wouldn't be able to say without getting some properly equalized/room correction going on them.  Maggie 3.6R is one of my favorite all time speakers...and always will be.

5) I have a huge appreciation for Paul and the products he offers at a substantially low price to performance ratio.  The looks are a nice bonus, but I don't even consider that as anything when the speakers sound so darn good.  I do my best to help people become more informed on his product, what to be expected, and to encourage anyone I run into to have serious look into buying his speakers.  At the same time, I am not "biased" towards his speakers which is where your use of the word "contentious" comes into play.  If I am to be biased towards anything, I have automatically declined my open love for music and the ability to assess music in a non-biased way.  I feel this is the worst part of the audio world in general...when things get so "personal", it's as if any little negative thing said about what they have is a personal hit.  It's just music, afterall, and furthermore, we are listening to "recordings"...since when can anyone say how a recording sounds and why does anyone care how the recording sounds???  It's a great goal to get a "close" to the recording as is possible...but in the end, all we have learned is the different parts and pieces of a recorded piece of music.  The final goal is to be able to sit back and simply "enjoy the music"...be it a recording or live...

Sorry Scott for my words in a post I have deleted...I stated my own opinion, just as I have here.  The most important thing in all that I have said is not what I think/feel about the Maggies, a Push-Pull amp vs. an SE amp, etc. etc...but rather, that I would have liked to see more about other speakers that are of comparable nature to the Sentinel and what your impression of these speakers was by comparison.

Thanks again Scott for what you do, and what you did for this review.  It shows a lot, in the thing that meant the most to me with this review=you tried a speaker in three different rooms...and on top of that, the amount of time you spent to do the review.  It shows a lot about you.  (bold is the most important part of my post)

[Audioexcels]

I personally have thoroughly enjoyed the little Jolida 102 at every turn.  This little integrated has wowed me with the Altec Bolero's, Meadowlark Osprey's, Musica Bella's, and the Odyssey Epipheny's; however, the most difficult to believe is having it drive a pair of beautiful sounding (10k) Teresonic Ingenium's.  The little amp conveyed the detailed nuances that make single driver designs so much fun and plenty of drive to keep the mojo in the music.  It may be the EL84 sound but whatever it is I'm sold on this little integrated. 
                                                                           Merrev

All EL84 amps I have heard have had that EL84 sound.  Not sure how to put a finger on it, but it is a more "tube" like sound..as in, nicer warmth...but this amp sounds like it was plainly well designed and could have used any power tube, though the designer obviously felt the EL84 and his circuit happened to be the right choice.

There really exists a 10K ONE DRIVER speaker???...and uhhhh...it's not a coaxial?...outright crazy if you ask me, though it's probably got a darn nice flavor of a sound...probably like Horns, but not honking at you;)...

[Audioexcels]

Coincidentally, I'm running a Jolida 801A into my Ronin's and I'm delighted with it!
I had a recent "itch" that needed scratching, so I'm reconfiguring the Ronins into bi-amp mode with solid-state on the woofers...but more on that later 

I rather enjoyed the review 

You should definitely consider having the Ronins with the Plate amplifier design.  You will have some "serious" SPL if driving only the top part with the amount of watts that 801 pumps out...and it would be much simpler to not have to deal with a second amp, the passive components on the bass section, etc. etc...just my .02 considering it's a cheap upgrade even with shipping them back factored in.

[EProvenzano]

Thanks audioexcels,

After considering all my options long and hard, I opted for external cross-overs.  This approach should offer me limitless options, if I care to explore.

I should add that Paul's customer service is top notch 

[Scott F.]

Audioexcels,

Now I understand where you were coming from  I think the brevity in your first post led to my misunderstanding. 

I totally agree with what you mentioned regarding some side by side comparisons. Unfortunately I don't have any commercially available OB speakers that I could have used. I'm not sure the the other conventional speakers I own would have been a worthy comparison since they are a typical box speakers. Though I guess I could have made the comparison to my Lowther open baffle. Mine are a bit unconventional but I could have made those comparisons.

You are right about the Maggies. I really can't use those as a direct comparison, they really are a different animal, much like my Lowther OB's. As a side note, The Maggie's I referred to in the article (Steve K's) really aren't Maggie's any more. Steve bi-amps with VTL's and he has completely rebuilt the XO's. They are stunning to listen to. They barely resemble the sound of stock IIIA's at this point. I probably should have expanded on that point to make it clearer. When it comes to our individual preferences in the quality of bass that Maggie's provide, I think it may be just that, personal preference. I really enjoy the sound of Steve's. It's clean, tight and articulate. In Steve's room (though I haven't measured it), it is pretty even and extends down into the 30's without much effort.

Staying with the Maggie's for a minute, it's sort strange, I've heard several people that have tried to mate subs with them and it's extremely difficult. The character of a paper sub mating to a ribbon panel is difficult if not near impossible. Every time I've heard one, the sub always seemed to stand out.

When it comes to using the JoLida, I think the point I wanted to get across in the article was that if you were the type of listener that doesn't listen overly loud and either wanted to experiment with a tube amp or preferred the sound of tubes, something as small as the 102B would actually work extremely well with the Sentinel's. And yes, the modified 102B does have that EL84 'sound' to it. The great part about it is that even though you get the EL84 flavor, it is still very clean and detailed. The tone of the amp and the sound of the Sentinel's were very complimentary of each other. Then again, I have a huge bias towards the sound of EL84 amps as I grew up listening to them. Their sound is right in my sweet spot.

When it comes to the bass the Sentinel's provided in my room, I could have done a better job of describing it. Know what though, I wonder if I glazed over that aspect because in the Redrum the bass was so satisfying? Hang with me for a minute....In nearly every speaker I've written about, I've always made comments about the quality of the bass compared to a big 12" or 15" sub. For some reason I didn't do it this time. In this next statement, I am really not trying to suck up to Paul, honest, but I wonder if the reason was, because subconsciously I felt the bass that the Sentinel's produced in my medium sized room was equivalent to using a sub? I know that sounds incredulous but I did go to the extent to measure their frequency response in the Redrum. One thing I don't do is publish the graphs of speakers I write about (with one exception). What I do is make mention of the bass extension as I measure it in my room. In the case of the Sentinel's, I wrote in the article that they extended well into the 20's (and actually below (-3db point)). As every room will experience, I had some humps and dips at nodes and nulls. All in all not too bad considering I use moderate room treatments, not wanting to turn it into an anechoic chamber.

When I measured the Sentinel's, I had about a 3db hump around 35Hz and it rose to about 4.5 or 5db at 25Hz, then fell off to a -3db point just below 20hz. I wonder if this room gain I experienced with the Sentinel's satisfied that little voice that is in my head that normally tells me that a speaker has inadequate deep bass? Granted the Sentinel only uses an 8" bass driver but subconsciously I must have felt my craving for deep bass had been satisfied. Hmmm...interesting. I'll have to give these a listen again after the mini-tour of the Sentinel's is over.

When it comes to room equalization, I'm sort of indifferent towards it. I know it's positive aspects. On the other hand I prefer not to use any. When I audition speakers or any other piece of gear, the EQ doesn't let me hear the gear in its pure form. The EQ allows me to compensate for a gears weakness. Plus, it is one more piece of electronics in the signal chain (the exception being software based when using a USB DAC or the like). Don't get me wrong, I really think it is a huge mistake that audiophilia has shunned tone controls. In doing so, certain recordings that were poorly mixed for systems like ours can no longer be played without sounding like crap. In particular, some classic Rock can sound really bad without boosting the bass. Trouble is, I'm a huge classic Rock fan. When you want to listen for the pure enjoyment of the music (read=non-critical listening), we can't because when you crank it, it literally hurts your ears...well it does mine anyway. I cheat. In my main rig I actively crossover the 15" woofers with a vintage active crossover. It has the ability to switch the XO point on the fly plus I can change the gain for the bass. When I listen to rock for pure enjoyment, I can reach down, notch up the XO point to about 250hz and boost the bass a few DB. In turn when I've had my fill of rock, I can reset the speakers to the flat position. I really wish preamp manufacturers would give us the option of defeatable and selectable tone controls, especially on the bass. As audiophiles, I think we know the difference between flat and boosted settings.

In the end, those of us that write don't normally own or have access to all the gear we would like. As much as I would have enjoyed having another pair or two of really good OB speakers, many of the manufacturers likely wouldn't have let me do a direct comparison. They typically prefer to have their product reviewed on a stand alone basis (that wasn't the case with Paul). I ran into this a number of years ago when I did comparisons of six or eight mini-monitors. Though some didn't mind, many didn't want their product compared against the competition. I actually had one manufacturer refuse unless he came down to my house and listened to my system and room. This also brings up another issue that has plagued the reviewing industry, writers having 'loaner' gear for extended periods. If a writer has loaner gear, he usually gets crucified on the boards by the audio extremists. If he buys it at a 'standard industry discount' he gets crucified by the same crowd. It is a Catch 22. Then there is the issue of storage. If you are lucky enough to have a lot of spare gear that can be used for comparisons, it can eat up all your personal storage space. Not to mention, a spare stock of premium quality gear can cost a bloody fortune. Thankfully my wife (God love her) is extremely tolerant of my habits .

Paul may have been better served picking a writer that had gear which aligned itself with the Sentinel's offering. I felt since I have a fair amount of experience with OB's and some gear that would mate fairly well, I could do them justice. Overall I think I did, though admittedly, I did fall short in a couple of areas, mainly direct comparisons. On the other hand, Paul knew I was impressed with his designs so he entrusted me with the review. As a manufacturer, you have to be careful who writes about your gear. The last thing he would want is someone who doesn't enjoy the sound of an OB design writing negative things about his 'babies'. As experienced writers, most of us tend to seek out gear that we can relate to. None of us want to write a purely negative article, it serves no one. We do try to impart exactly how a piece of gear sounds in our systems, both the good and the adequate.

Audioexcels, no worries mate. No harm, no foul  You do bring up a really good point about the bass. I'm definitely going to give the Sentinel's a listen again when they come back around. You've got me wondering now 





....oh, I edited my statements above to in order to correct a my misconceptions about your first post 

[PaulHilgeman]

Thanks for the back and forth guys.

The only thing I really want to comment on here would be the perceived deep bass.

It all comes down to two primary things.  First, the SEAS woofers are really awesome drivers, very good motor deign, very linear, high output potential... comes at a price of course.

Second, the gentle 12dB roll-off below 55Hz or so is going to match well with most rooms providing really flat bass down into the 20's.  If I had opted for a ported speaker tuned to 40Hz there would actually be less bass in the 20Hz region, and to compound that, it would feel like much less due to the fact that being flat to 40Hz is going to create a hump in most environments in the 40-60Hz range.  This will make the perception of bass in the 20-40 Range reduced.

And AudioExcels, I hope that you mean that my equipment has a HIGH performance to dollar ratio 

All the best,
Paul

[Audioexcels]

Thanks audioexcels,

After considering all my options long and hard, I opted for external cross-overs.  This approach should offer me limitless options, if I care to explore.

I should add that Paul's customer service is top notch 

He has wonderful customer service.  It may be tough not being a Wilson, but it's a lot tougher, from my standpoint, to sell a fabricated/kitch type product to the masses.  I'd feel much more satisfied that a business is successful enough to make a living from, but that it is no overly successful to the point that it is Wilson or Martin Logan, etc.  I feel much more gratitude helping than receiving, but I cannot express how much I have been fortunate to receive all the knowledge about the path for me in audio that I have finally put all those bugs to rest so I can just enjoy the music.

External crossovers will definitely do great, but just consider the plate option at some point in time:).  And..."definitely" consider digital room correction/PC audio.  It's way out of the tradition, but it's pretty nice to have 1TB of music in a computer that can sample any rates, and even run to a nice LCD monitor so you can make your system a digitally correct powerhouse along with all the video to go along with it;).  Nothing like tossing in or having in your favorite live dvds to watch through your LIVE Ronins:)

[Audioexcels]

Thanks for the back and forth guys.

The only thing I really want to comment on here would be the perceived deep bass.

It all comes down to two primary things.  First, the SEAS woofers are really awesome drivers, very good motor deign, very linear, high output potential... comes at a price of course.

Second, the gentle 12dB roll-off below 55Hz or so is going to match well with most rooms providing really flat bass down into the 20's.  If I had opted for a ported speaker tuned to 40Hz there would actually be less bass in the 20Hz region, and to compound that, it would feel like much less due to the fact that being flat to 40Hz is going to create a hump in most environments in the 40-60Hz range.  This will make the perception of bass in the 20-40 Range reduced.

And AudioExcels, I hope that you mean that my equipment has a HIGH performance to dollar ratio 

All the best,
Paul

I think it deserves a showdown with very expensive showroom speakers sold at hi-end shops.  I'd love to have them in there, with some fancy brand name on them, and to have the dealer say, well...we have these, which are targetted at such and such a listener that you should definitely have a listen to.  I think with a brand name to give the placebo effect, a LOT of people will end up walking out of that high end shop with the Sentinel...I'd even have a 5K price on them so they can put them side by side the other 5K moniitors and floorstanders that will be put to shame;).

Scott and I both came up with the best resolution for sound...but he came out ahead of me and my concept...his "laser" technology was ahead of my thinking.  We can share these thoughts in another time and thread:)....or when Scott and I develop this system and sell it out to Bose for 30 million;)!!!

Cheers!

[PaulHilgeman]

The review pair is for-sale:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=46904.new#new


-Paul