Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital

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honeybird

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Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« on: 29 Aug 2007, 10:45 pm »
Hello everyone,

I am considering upgrading a 1993 vintage AVA CD system for a new Ultra DAC. I would appreciate any input and comparisons between older generation AVA digital gear and the Ultra (i.e. If you have made the step up, were there significant benefits?). My old gear still sounds really great and it is hard for me to imagine sufficient improvement to justify the expense.

Many thanks for your comments.

Bob

10ear

Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #1 on: 30 Aug 2007, 01:35 am »

You will enjoy the any upgrades to your AVA DAC. I have had 3 done to mine to bring it to Ultra, IIRC, and they all have considerably improved my listening experience and the enjoyment of my CD library. I do not speak '"revieweresse" (sp), so I cant tell you anything along those lines, but I like what I hear and Frank has not steered me wrong in some 20 or 30  years. Incidentally, I enjoy a wide range of music.

That having been said, I would recommend you give him a call and discuss your system. He may have some suggestions that will give you more "buck for the Bang"....

Ole 10ear

Dan Kolton

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Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #2 on: 30 Aug 2007, 08:51 pm »
The Ultra DAC with the latest 6N1P tubes exhibits superior dynamics even compared to the old tubes.  Whether this is worh the money to you is not something I can't judge, but I'd bet you'd hear much better clarity and tembre compared to your older DAC.  I've owned them all including the system with the outboard filter and Magnavox/Philips player. Believe me, this is a vast improvement.

Zheeeem

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Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #3 on: 31 Aug 2007, 12:47 pm »
I have one of Frank's older CDP units.  I think it's based on the Magnavox 581 chassis.  In the mid-90s I bought an Omega DAC.  At the time it was a tremendous improvement.  In fact, I think Frank's outboard DACs are his single best product - and it was the Omega that convinced me.  A couple years ago I bought an Ultra DAC, and it is a significant improvement over the Omega.  I still use the old CDP unit (it's plugged into our HT).  But the Ultra is immensely better.

gjs_cds

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Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #4 on: 31 Aug 2007, 05:05 pm »
What I would really love to see is AVA HiFi collaborate with a chip manufacturer / specialist such that the actual DAC portion (of the AVA DAC) could be improved, while retaining the AVA analog processing after the actual DAC.  Stated differently, a single 16 bit, 4x oversampled DAC (for two channels) cannot compete with bigger, better, faster, and more powerful chipsets in converting bits to a waveform.  Period.  This is the nature of digital technology; one blinks, and things become obsolete.  However, waiting around for a bit usually allows a paradigm to plateau, creating a law of diminishing returns relative to technology vs. task performance.  But with that said, a single 16 bit 4x oversampling chipset may not be at that plateau. 

First off--separate chips for separate channels.  Using 1 chip for stereo essentially causes interpolation issues.  Second-- upsample 16 bits to 24 bits, thus allowing (exponentially) better resolution via antialiasing  (i.e., Analog Devices AD1896).  Third--use a DAC at 196KHz and 8x oversampling (i.e., Cirrus CS4398 DAC).  Finally--this type of digital processing does not lend well to hand soldiers; throw it all on a board and let technology take care of the connections.  There are companies that solely provide this type of services @ low production quantities.  (And what would really be killer would be added flexibility, such as the ability to read uncompressed music files burned onto a DVD or off of a portable MP3 player...  but that's just icing on a cake.)

The purpose of a DAC is to use math to convert a bunch of 0s and 1s into an analog waveform.  And when it's in a mathematical realm--algorithms, resolution and processing speed really do count.  Converting the bits to a waveform is where the pencil-necked geek in a chip lab excels.

But what is done after the waveform is created is where AVA excels; analog designs that are second to none.  Nobody with a brain would ever argue this point. 

Why not marry the two and get the best of both worlds?
« Last Edit: 31 Aug 2007, 06:46 pm by gjs_cds »

Dan Kolton

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Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #5 on: 31 Aug 2007, 07:34 pm »
gjs_cds,
Have you actually listened to an AVA Ultra?  Perhaps the marriage you propose would be far more expensive with no audible benefit!

gjs_cds

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Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #6 on: 31 Aug 2007, 08:11 pm »
gjs_cds,
Have you actually listened to an AVA Ultra?  Perhaps the marriage you propose would be far more expensive with no audible benefit!

Yeah--I agree w/ what you're saying 100%.  Perhaps the marriage of the two is cost prohibitive.   

No--I've not heard one.  But what's stopping me from even going through the hassle?  The fact that they use antiquated DAC chipsets. 

Toka

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Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #7 on: 31 Aug 2007, 08:28 pm »
I dunno...something tells me that if Frank thought using a "new" chipset would be better, he would do it. Going the high-bit, r2r route is likely more expensive than many other alternatives (and harder to implement at that), but listening to it shows its worth...antiquated or not!  8)

tonyptony

Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #8 on: 31 Aug 2007, 08:31 pm »
I don't want to start a flame war here, but I'm not so sure I agree with this premise, gjs. Newer DACs aside, a CD still contains data at 16 bits, 44.1 KHz. A well designed 16 bit ring ladder DAC, used in a well designed D/A circuit, does not have many shortfalls in its ability to produce music. I've heard the Ultra DAC in a friend's system. It sounds great. I can't tell how old the DACs are when I listen to it. I hear no restrictions, and I've heard a number of newer machines in some very high end systems (often with the same speakers he uses). My own D/A uses the BB PCM-63K, considered one of the best 16 bit DACs ever made. My multichannel controller uses newer BB DACs that have additional bits and higher sampling rates. Both units were modified by the same upgrade company. They both sound great; my D/A sounds better for 2 channel music. I've had newer D/As in my own system - I keep going back to the PCM-63K.

I also vote for trying the Ultra DAC. The worst that could happen is that you'd lose shipping costs sending it back to Frank. :dunno:

gjs_cds

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Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #9 on: 31 Aug 2007, 09:48 pm »
I don't want to start a flame war here, but I'm not so sure I agree with this premise, gjs. Newer DACs aside, a CD still contains data at 16 bits, 44.1 KHz. A well designed 16 bit ring ladder DAC, used in a well designed D/A circuit, does not have many shortfalls in its ability to produce music. I've heard the Ultra DAC in a friend's system. It sounds great. I can't tell how old the DACs are when I listen to it. I hear no restrictions, and I've heard a number of newer machines in some very high end systems (often with the same speakers he uses). My own D/A uses the BB PCM-63K, considered one of the best 16 bit DACs ever made. My multichannel controller uses newer BB DACs that have additional bits and higher sampling rates. Both units were modified by the same upgrade company. They both sound great; my D/A sounds better for 2 channel music. I've had newer D/As in my own system - I keep going back to the PCM-63K.

I also vote for trying the Ultra DAC. The worst that could happen is that you'd lose shipping costs sending it back to Frank. :dunno:

Hey--this is great tweako discussion.  No flamewar on my side; I live for this stuff.  And I'm not discounting your point either.  The question at hand is--does audio anti-aliasing provide for a better result.  In theory--it should.  In practice, it's a small piece of the pie that can be totally obfuscated if other pieces of the pie are neglected.   

I guess the only point that I'm trying to make is that: (1) Math is Math.  It's tough to argue about such easily quantifiable results.  (2) Computer chips crunch math.  (3) There have been advancements in these computer chips that (in theory and practice) have improved the DAC process.  Limitations due to past technologies are no longer present.  So why continue to use such limitations.

Another question that I'd like answered is how much affect does the actual DAC chipset have on an external DAC--when compared to the other analog components?  I can totally see how an older DAC could sound better if it had better analog post-DAC processing...

Anyway--I'm rambling...

tonyptony

Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #10 on: 31 Aug 2007, 11:53 pm »
I agree this is an interesting area. One can look to Wadia as one of the first companies to use software based filtering in their CD players. Relatively primitive algorithms in a simple processor, when compared to today's gear and software. On a graph the characteristic Wadia frequency response looks like it rolls off too quickly in the upper octaves (and it does), but for some reason it sure doesn't have any effect on the sound! I guess one of the questions is how much does the math actually contribute to the sound beyond let's call it the "basal" level, versus a well designed digital and analog system that may be based on earlier technology?

gjs_cds

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Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #11 on: 1 Sep 2007, 01:08 am »
I guess what I've been trying to say, albeit incoherently, is this:  An external DAC has two functions: (1) To collect digital bits and render the most realistic analog waveform possible.  (2) To prepare that analog waveform for a pre-amp.   

Who's to say which is more important?  In the grand scheme of things, step 2 may very well play a bigger factor in the audio gestalt.  I'm not even going to venture into that discussion...

But regardless of this likelihood described above, why limit oneself in #1?  Upsampling to 24 bit does provide exponentially greater resolution; a more analog-like waveform rendered from a digital source.  And using a dual DAC design (one chipset per-channel) solves audio interlacing that occurs when 1 chipset has to perform double-duty for both channels.  Issues of jitter could also be improved upon.

I'm certainly not bashing on AVA gear... my only point was to suggest that a marriage between geeky chip people (#1) and AVA's proven record in analog processing (#2) would likely yield terrific results. 

avahifi

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Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #12 on: 4 Sep 2007, 01:09 pm »
Once upon a time there was a computer company named Osborn.  Their claim to fame was the marketing of the worlds first portable "laptop" computer, if you consider a 40 pound suitcase with a 5 inch screen and about 2 bits of memory as being portable.

In any event it sold like crazy.  People were lined to to buy it, dealers stocked it heavily, wholesales stocked it heavily, until - - -

One day Osborn announced their next upcoming new model - - about twice as fast, half weight, twice as big a screen, and lower priced to boot.  They only overlooked one thing, they would be unable to supply the new model for several months.

Overnight their sales crashed, retailers returned unsold inventory to wholesales, who trucked them back to the factory and the reps and execs and workers all had cold computer for dinner and the company vanished as quickly as it had appeared in the first place.

This in the industry now is known as "doing an Osborn" - -  something to be avoided please.   :o

We are equipped to continue building the only true 16-bit 4X oversampling DAC in existence any more, with a gosh awesome hybrid analog filter and audio stage, powered by a multi-section active analog high speed, high voltage, power supply for as long as you people out there still enjoy music, and appreciate true to life playback equipment at a halfway rational price.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

JP78

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Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #13 on: 4 Sep 2007, 04:26 pm »
just shows what a class act mr. van alstine is.  that's about the nicest way i've ever seen somebody say stfu, please :).

martyo

Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #14 on: 4 Sep 2007, 04:38 pm »
I don't keep up with all the acronyms, and sometimes I can't figure them out so I "google" 'em, like this time. I think you're right there, JP78!   :lol: :icon_lol: :lol: :icon_lol: :lol: :icon_lol:

martyo

Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #15 on: 4 Sep 2007, 09:06 pm »

We are equipped to continue building the only true 16-bit 4X oversampling DAC in existence any more, with a gosh awesome hybrid analog filter and audio stage, powered by a multi-section active analog high speed, high voltage, power supply for as long as you people out there still enjoy music, and appreciate true to life playback equipment at a halfway rational price.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine


Just got off the phone with Frank, ordered my Ultra DAC. :hyper:

Wayner

Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #16 on: 4 Sep 2007, 09:26 pm »
You lucky dog! Enjoy the DAC!  :drool:

Wayner

mark funk

Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #17 on: 4 Sep 2007, 09:35 pm »
That's good Martyo, now you won't be bugging me any more for my Transcendence-R DAC you well have your own Ultra DAC and boy are you going to happy!:smoke:

mark funk

Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #18 on: 4 Sep 2007, 09:39 pm »
Oh sorry, that's you well be vary happy! :smoke:

Wayner

Re: Ultra DAC vs Older AVA Digital
« Reply #19 on: 4 Sep 2007, 10:47 pm »
BTW, I have the older TOPP/DAC from Frank (1997, I think) and it kicks as_ with my MartinLogans. Even Frank (when visiting my house) said my speakers are keepers. I'm not sure he knew he was listening to his old DAC, but that box makes my ML's sound unbelievable. I can't imagine what the Ultra would sound like in my system, hummmmmmm.................... :drool:

Wayner