Dedicated Outlets

Carlman · « **on:** 29 Aug 2003, 05:07 pm »

I have a new house... yay! but, the power absolutely sucks. Most of the 30 cent outlets are loose and too many outlets are wired to one breaker (for my taste). I can hear a huge sonic discrepancy from the old house (with dedicated outlet) to the new one. So, now I have to do the dedicated outlet thing.

The previous house was wired with standard 14/3 Romex to a $2 Eagle outlet. For the new house I can get Belden 83000 series cable in 12/3 configuration or just go with the Romex again but, in a larger gauge. The cost difference is enormous.

Also, I'm completely out of space on my panel. What are your opinions on running a separate panel off the main power supply vs. re-routing a few things and/or getting the slim-line breakers?

Also, any brand of breaker better than the other for sonics? I've used Square D in the past but, I haven't wired for an audio-only application before.

I'll be running 2 lines under the house from the panel to the listening room. (1 for digital and phono, 1 for amp/preamp)... however, I also will be getting a TV in this room at some point. It'll most likely be a Plasma or LCD. Does it need a run as well or can that be part of the amp/preamp line?

Any suggestions or opinions are appreciated.

rosconey · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Aug 2003, 08:10 pm »

i used 12ga romex and it works fine, i dont see why you could'nt run a secondary box for ht equipment.

shokunin · « **Reply #2 on:** 30 Aug 2003, 01:27 am »

Assuming you're not exceeding the amperage of the service to your box, you could always replace the standard breakers with dual-mini breakers. Square D and others make a number of dual breakers in the place of single breakers.

Carlman · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Sep 2003, 05:39 pm »

Looks like the skinnies will be the answer... just way easier than running a separate box. I'll probably go ahead and make 4 separate runs instead of 2... I looked into the Plasma TV thing and those require a LOT of juice.... So much so I'll probably wait until LCD's are offered in the 42" size.

In any case, thanks for the suggestions. The panel and breakers are Square D so, I'll probably just use that brand for the slim breakers.

I decided to keep the cost down so, I'll probably buy Romex and the cheapest good outlets I can find. I'm deciding between Pass & Seymour and Hubbell now... Anyone have any suggestion on best prices? Lowe's nor Home Depot sell either. Anyone use 'Cooper'?

Thanks again,
Carl

satfrat · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 01:11 am »

Hi Carl, you can find cryoed Pass & Seymour ranging from $12.99- $33.99 depending on model at www.venhaus1.com . Chris is easy to converse with and very helpful.

Regards, Robin

bubba966 · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 01:26 am »

Quote from: Carlman

Anyone have any suggestion on best prices? Lowe's nor Home Depot sell either. Anyone use 'Cooper'?

I've used quite a few of the Cooper/Eagle 20A Hospital Grade Isolated Ground outlets (part #IG8300RN). I'm quite happy with them, and they're less than $10 at Loewe's. I've also tried the Cooper/Eagle 20A Industrial Grade outlets (about $5.50 or so). But the Industrial Grade outlets didn't have the grip that the Hospital Grade outlets do. And didn't seem to perform as good as the Hospital Grade outlets do.

I ran 10/2 Romex when I installed my 20A dedicated circuit. It was a little bit of fun as it is rather stiff. But it wasn't so bad to make me regret using 10/2 when 12/2 woulda sufficed.

Whatever you get, I suggest going for a 20A Hospital Grade recepticle. Be it Hubbell, Cooper/Eagle, P&S, etc.

markC · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 02:52 am »

Awe, c'mon spring for the 83803.

I've been meaning to spend on this adventure for a while now, and you could tell me if it's worth while!

Carlman · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 03:05 am »

Quote from: markC

Awe, c'mon spring for the 83803. I've been meaning to spend on this adventure for a while now, and you could tell me if it's worth while!

That was my first choice... but the length is killing me. I need 4 runs at 50 feet... 200 feet at $3/foot... (from Ernie)... 600 is just more than I have/am willing to spend. I started thinking maybe digital could get the 83803 and everything else be Romex but, screw it.. I was at Home Depot today and saw all the Romex for like 30-40 per 200 feet... I just doubt it's worth the extra $500 to do Belden.

Thanks for the tips on the outlets. I used Eagle in the last house and they seemed fine. I think I'll try to find the P&S outlets, I've heard nothing but good things about them from people who have actually used them.

rosconey · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 09:19 am »

i use pass &seymour they work fine

DVV · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 07:37 pm »

Gentlemen, let's get one thing straight.

Dedicated outlets may improve your sound if you use thick, highly conductive wiring, which will reduce the source impedance and thus be beneficial to any transformer. It may also help with behemoth amps which are very power hungry, and consequently need more juice.

But dedicated power outlets will do NOTHING about line pollution - if anything, they will let more junk get through due to their better conductivity. They will not save you even from the junk generated in your own home. If you use them and stop having quirks every time the fridge starts up, that's most probably because the cable supplying the fridge is not much of a cable, so when the electric motor soaks up 7-8 times its nominal power when starting up (a period of less than 1 second, extra power needed to overcome the inertia of the motor) the wiring effectively runs out of breath. The same noise is still in your line, but now in its natural form, i.e. without the power starving effect.

Please don't misunderstand, I am not trying to say that dedicated outputs are silly - not at all, they make sense, and are the best thing around if later on allied with a decent line filter. Together, these two things will make a very hard to beat combination. But just having dedicated outputs and hearing a difference really means the rest of your wiring is donkey manure quality (unfortunately, this seems to be a world-wide case in case of new buildings).

Cheers,
DVV

rosconey · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Sep 2003, 10:30 pm »

i had too because my house is 50 years old and didnt have a grounded line anyplace, also only had a 60 amp fuse box .upgraded from the weather head in, new large breaker box and ran dedicated lines(12/3) for fridge, dish washer , ht system and whirlpool.

satfrat · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Sep 2003, 06:08 am »

Yep, me too Rosconey, my place is 100 years old but was rewire 56 years ago, also with no ground, so I wired in a dedicated circuit off a 20 amp breaker exclusively for my HT. The only thing that`s plugged into my grounded PS PowerPort is my BPT balanced power conditioner, a killer combination as it turned out. I feel no one is truely reaching their system`s potential without a solid power conditioning foundation to start with. (BTW, I studied under PsychicAnimal

) Regards, Robin

Carlman · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 02:23 pm »

I have 10 49¢ receptacles on one 15-amp breaker that all need to be redone properly. (loose wires, insulation showing) I could go through the whole house and replace them all or I could wire a dedicated outlet. Also, I don't have a huge amp but, I have one that sucks at higher volumes where it didn't before on a dedicated circuit.

The lighting is on separate breakers, one breaker per room upstairs... however, just a couple downstairs. There's very inconsistent logic and poor load balancing from what I can see at my house.

I have FM radio at times that I can hear through my speakers. I'm not near a radio antenna. I have no tuner. Other than the FM and the current suck, I don't care about anything else.

I have bought a couple of OneAC's and will use new wiring and better receptacles in them to see if they provide a sonic benefit. If they don't, you'll see them for sale quickly.

markC · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Sep 2003, 09:15 pm »

Fm radio with no tuner? Not good-that's pretty severe RF interferance! I'd remove one speak wire, one ic, etc. from one channel at a time to find out where it's being picked up. Then by process of elimination, you'd know what to fix first. Hopefully not all of your cabling is picking up the RF. That 83803 shielding is sounding better all the time.

audiodir · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Sep 2003, 09:25 am »

I would recommend the Leviton 5362 duplex outlet ( Michael Green used to sell it as an audiophile grade outlet) about $8 to $13 each, depending on your local suppliers. The Spec grade outlets are cheaper than Hospital grade and better sounding. I believe the 5362 is a NEMA spec and many other makers have similarly spec'ed outlets.
When installing the outlets, stagger the input wires so that one leg enters one plug (say lower) and the other enters the other (upper plug of the duplex). The two duplex outlets are connectd by a thin strip in the middle so bridge the connection with a good gauge wire from the back. This will force both outlets to share the loads more equitably.

While ten gauge is good, 12 gauge is fine also and easier to find and usually much cheaper. If you want to go all out, try buying four conductor wire and NOT use the black leg. The black insulation has carbon and is slightly conductive. If you really have old wiring, the type where the individual wires have been stapled to the wood beams, you'll notice that the black insulation is always burnt and brittle at the bends, where there is usually a staple or a clip. That's the current bleeding through the insulation. I never see it with white or red wire, only with black.

Never use the half breakers for your audio outlets, they share the same contact patch on the the panel box and you will lower current transfer. If you have to use them, switch your light circuits or something else onto the half breakers and use the full sized ones for your audio or video. If you can, mount the breakers closest to the input power line. Usually most electricians place the large 240 volt breakers there for your dryer or oven. Getting your audio/video breakers mounted upstream of your heavy appliances helps reduce the noise they pick up.
If you can mount one dedicated line for your audio and a separate one for your video/digital gear.

Stu

Carlman · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Sep 2003, 01:18 pm »

Stu,
Thanks for your suggestions. .....Lights and other receptacles to the thin outlets.... that makes sense.
I will most likely be running 3 separate dedicated outlets. (1 duplex per breaker) 1 for amp and preamp, 1 for CD/DAC/TT/other source, and 1 for video.

For wire choice, it was suggested I use 10-ga THNN type wire (using conduit)... so, I may use that... but, am still considering Romex 12/3 for convenience. If I can find 12/4, I'll check it out.

I know Leviton is carried at Home Depot so, that'll be easy to pickup when I get a weekend to do this project. I've heard the hospital grades tend to roll-off highs but, haven't experienced it myself. The Eagle's I have now are OK but, I haven't compared them to anything.

Thanks again,
Carl

audiodir · « **Reply #16 on:** 12 Sep 2003, 08:27 am »

THHN wire is hardened in order to be pushed through conduit easier. If you can locate TW wire, it'll sound better as annealed copper has 4% better conductivity. Check out old electrical supply houses and electrical contractors. I bought 500' spools of 12 gauge TW for about $20 because they no longer use the TW but had large amounts still st\itting in the warehouse.

Stu

byteme · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 Sep 2003, 05:48 pm »

I did this just over a year ago when we put on an addition. We had to add an extra breaker box, no choice. We ran romex and terminated in P&S hospital grade outlets, two of them.

After a year I spent a couple more dollars and improved things more than running dedicated lines (although they are necessary as a starting point). Get cryo'd high copper content outlets. I got mine from Virtual Dynamics for $30 each. Hubbel outlets, the 5362 specifically, have more copper than any other outlet. Double deep cryo'd by VD too!! Then I got Oneac isolation transformers, one for my digital stuff and one for analog from ebay. Replaced the outlets in them with cryo'd ones too. The only other thing I'd suggest is put in one more duplex outlet than you think you'll need. You can't have enough!! Total upgrade cost was $50 for the Oneac's, $150 for the outlets and my time. The difference was AMAZING. Total silence even at full volume (with no input) from the preamp. Big increase in dynamics and clarity. I am DONE tweaking power now, it's THAT good.

satfrat · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 Sep 2003, 05:55 pm »

BTW, those Hubbel 5362 all copper cryoed duplex outlet can be had for $18.99 at www.venhaus1.com . These happen to be a favorite if Chris VenHaus also.

Regards, Robin