[markC]

I have great interest in this topic as I have purchased and built several different wires over the years. I've been reading along for a while now, but are we really getting any farther ahead in the debate?

How about we put this never to be ended subject to a poll?
Just how many people have heard a difference, ( for better or worse), when they changed wire in THEIR system?
We will never agree on what's the good, better or best. Essentially, everyone's rig is different and I believe that some may benefit from a wire change and some may not.

[TONEPUB]

Hey there:

You are a brave guy indeed for getting on board this train...

Count me in the can hear a change with all of them, but it does depend on the system.
I'm of the mind that the more resolution your system posesses, the more apparent the
differences will be.  On my budget system, there is not that much diff between cables.

[JLM]

I can hear the difference with any of the cable types listed (but could only vote for one) in my $2500 system (Oppo 970, Channel Island Audio VMB-1 monoblocks, Bob Brines FTA-2000 single driver transmission line speakers).

Perhaps an "all of the above" option should be added.

[djbnh]

Count me in the can hear a change with all of them.

X2

[JohnR]

Mark, if you click on the "Edit Poll" link you can set the number of options people can select to 3. You may also want to turn on the "Can change vote" option at the same time. Then people can choose more than one option.

[prokennex]

It only allows you to select one. How can you select more than one?

Thks
Ray

[Thebiker]

I'm in the "I can hear a difference" camp.  That does not mean I will spend megabucks on cables, but stepping up from the usual mid-fi cables found in many shops and box stores can make an audible difference. 

I have also found that this is also gear dependent.....I sold mid-fi & home theater for several years and played with various cables, and found that the differences could be surprising.  Within my own gear, primarily tube gear, I have found that changes in sound to be quite noticeable, but not always for the better.  That would be where the elusive term "synergy" comes into play.  The right cables can make a system open up and sing beautifully.  The wrong choice can go from muddy to fingernails on a chalk board.

With my Cary gear, I have found Kimber to be pleasing to my ears.  If I put my Manley amp in with the Kimber, it is too bright.  Same cables, same speakers & sources, just a different amp.  Back to synergy.  Getting it right is a lovely thing, but frequently a trial & error process.

And I have no desire to get into the "cables make no difference" debate.  Whatever makes you smile is a good thing.

[KCI-JohnP]

I believe that cables make a difference(obviously, I'm a cable builder!!) and I can hear it in my system as well as a couple of my friends so I vote yes. I think that IC's make the most noticeable difference followed by power cords and then speaker cables. This is of course just my opinion.

Best Regards,
John

[Big Red Machine]

Surprised at the number of folks hearing differences with power cords.  I have yet to try this am encouraged (I think) that I can move my cords around and perhaps improve the sound.  IC's make the biggest impact so far and I am still messing with SC's, then I'll move on to PC's.

Then I'll try some contact tweak solutions/pastes.

[AJinFLA]

Didn't like the direction the other Audio Jewlery thread was heading, so time to start a new one lest your opinion gets missed? Oh, wait, this one has a poll. A little positive reinforcement was needed?

I have great interest in this topic as I have purchased and built several different wires over the years.

Yes, that's generally how it works, the people who spend money over several years on different wires are the ones who have the greatest interest.

I've been reading along for a while now, but are we really getting any farther ahead in the debate?

People have been debating wires, pictures in freezers, wood blocks, religion, etc,etc. for a long time. How would you define being "farther ahead" in such debates? Is there a goal?

How about we put this never to be ended subject to a poll?

To get farther ahead?

Just how many people have heard a difference, ( for better or worse), when they changed wire in THEIR system?

I don't think too many are arguing that folks don't hear a difference when conducting carefully uncontrolled listening tests. Plus there is this minor thing called RLC. Maybe RF.
Wouldn't you be more interested in why they hear a difference? If they hear a difference?

We will never agree on what's the good, better or best.

Agreed. But we should first establish that there is a difference, before trying to determine whether this is good/bad/indifferent.

Essentially, everyone's rig is different

How was this determined?

I believe that some may benefit from a wire change and some may not.

Based on?

Count me in the can hear a change with all of them, but it does depend on the system.
I'm of the mind that the more resolution your system posesses, the more apparent the
differences will be.

Yes, that's the same argument the freezer picture/bybee/wood block/alarm clock,etc,etc. always uses. The system always has to have "more resolution" to hear the differences. Don't forget "burned in" or the listener must have "superb perception" through self analysis.
How about this possibility. The worse the design/engineering of the system components, the greater the effect cables/wires/cords will have on them? Is that remotely probable?

On my budget system, there is not that much diff between cables.

Maybe its well engineered? So that frozen photos won't effect it either?

cheers,

AJ

[dado5]

Since I'm only able to pick one I picked IC's as they seem to make the biggest difference for me.


BUT..........

I don't deal with any of them anymore - I make my own. The last commercial cable of any type I owned was Analysis Plus ICs.  I made a pair of ultrathin magnet wire ICs, liked them better and have not looked back since. I just don't have the time or desire to keep experimenting on various designs and so I don't think about it anymore - I just stick with the best sounding recipes I've found over the past half dozen years or so.

The 'science' involved is nothing more than assertion on both sides. Audio perception is purely internal to the person experiencing it and there is, therefore, no way to prove causation. Language is the only means to make this perception known to others and this vehicle is effectively as subjective as the experience itself.

So my attitude is pure liberty of choice. Everyone is free to spend whatever they want to acheive the experience they desire. In as much a some vocal objectivists want state intervention in the market, if anyone is to be forcibly limited in their activities it should be these busy-body morons.

[AJinFLA]

Well, at least we got past 10 posts before "moron" came into use .
That should get the debate farther ahead.

[macrojack]

Four honest answers so far =  2 don't know and 2 don't care. All the rest are delusional.

[TONEPUB]

Well AJ, I'll stick by the resolution claim...

It's just like putting really high performance tires on a honda accord, you can't tell much
difference.  But if you swap tires on a tricked out Porsche GT3 you can feel it in the first
curve.

Perhaps a better example is putting better film in a camera.  If you use a 99 dollar point and
shoot, you wont see much difference between 100, 200 and 400 film, but if you put that same
film in a Leica there will be a huge difference in clarity.

As you go up the food chain in high end audio, it's all about resolution, dynamics and
musicality.

I definitely agree that many of the cable products are overpriced for what they are;
wires, insulation, jacketing and connectors.

I also maintain that I have never heard "jaw dropping" changes to even great systems
with cables, but I have heard enough of a diff that it was worth investigating.

And I love being passed off as delusional by someone who hasn't spent anywhere
near the time I have with this stuff.  Why do you guys even participate in these
discussions/arguments if you are so sure that you are the only one that has the answers?

Next time you are at CES, please stop and introduce yourself.  I'll be happy to introduce
you and Macrojack to Ray Kimber, George Cardas and Matthew Bond so that you can tell them what
morons they are...

[Carlman]

Why do you guys even participate in these discussions/arguments if you are so sure that you are the only one that has the answers?

I was wondering why they participate at all on an audio-enthusiast board given the nature of the hobby.... Other than manufacturers who think their design belies all cabling inadequecies, who in this hobby really doesn't think signal cabling and power delivery aren't affecting the sound in any way?  Of course you'll hear more differences if your system is able to reveal more... that's one of the main goals in this hobby.... to build a system that's transparent enough to reveal colorations/changes/etc.

Sharing and comparing the differences we hear in our systems is a fun part of this hobby.  Debating whether it 'should or shouldn't' just makes things dull.  Experiment and share your results!

[macrojack]

I did not use the word moron. I did say that those who think this matters are delusional. The title above, audio jewelry is appropriate. I think all jewelry is stupid. It is meant to adorn something otherwise considered too plain. I found some inexpensive cables that convey the audio signal satisfactorily and dismissed the entire topic. Too much importance is attached to this issue. Certainly there are preferences to be considered but these are merely opinion and are of no more merit or significance than any other matter which is decided by personal taste. My wife looks at fire engine red and calls it pink. How can I tell her that she isn't seeing pink? She thinks she is making a definitive observation and I think she's delusional.
And those guys you mentioned have built a career on delusion. They started out just making better wire products and then we enshrined them and showed our willingness to pay anything if they would just bring us a new product with a great story.
I bought into this stuff pretty heavily in the 90s. Haven't bothered to pay attention since so I am admittedly unaware of anything since the MK II revision signature edition cyoed masterwork 3A. Surely I've fallen way behind.

[AJinFLA]

As you go up the food chain in high end audio, it's all about resolution, dynamics and
musicality.

Maybe. Those words mean a lot of different things to different people. But unfortunately, we always seem to go down the chain when it comes to scientific reasoning. I don't see why they should be in conflict with each other.

I definitely agree that many of the cable products are overpriced for what they are;
wires, insulation, jacketing and connectors.

Well, our stereos wouldn't function too well without them. They certainly make a difference there.

I also maintain that I have never heard "jaw dropping" changes to even great systems
with cables, but I have heard enough of a diff that it was worth investigating.

Then we agree. If there is a difference, then I always like knowing why. RLC?

And I love being passed off as delusional by someone who hasn't spent anywhere
near the time I have with this stuff.  Why do you guys even participate in these
discussions/arguments if you are so sure that you are the only one that has the answers?

Is this directed at me? Would you mind quoting me if so?

Next time you are at CES, please stop and introduce yourself.  I'll be happy to introduce
you and Macrojack to Ray Kimber, George Cardas and Matthew Bond so that you can tell them what
morons they are...

Why would I do that? I don't consider the first two to be morons (nor did I call anyone as such) and I have no idea who the third person is. You seem to reading things I have not said. Perhaps this is what you want to see?

cheers,

AJ

[markC]

I'm just trying to bring this to more of a conversation than a debate/argument.
If you need to dissect my post, than so be it.
Sorry about the lack of choices on the poll; I must confess that I don't know how to use all the tools at hand.
It wouldn't be right if I didn't list my own opinion on wire - so here is a brief summary.
PC's-least difference-slightly better bass,more full bodied and tighter at the same time.
IC's-a better "view" into the recording with the clarity and presence of esp scially vocals.
Speaks-greatest difference for me-can go from overly warm and homogenized to clinical.
I won't say, (for now), what I use as it will no dought lead to another dissection, and that is not what this topic is about.

[TONEPUB]

However, if you are a dealer for ZU, you must sell some of their cables?

Honestly as an industry professional, I have really steered clear of the super
expensive cable, especially the stuff that is more than about a thousand dollars
a pop.

I've listened to a lot of good things in the 100 - 600 dollar range with excellent
results, which I believe is where most of the value lies.

And for what it's worth, I've always been very reluctant to tell people to spend
big money on cables unless EVERYTHING else in their system is really dialed in
and they have major discretionary income.

Even our magazine does not have any ads for the mega cables....

So in the end, it's a tough one to call.

I just had a discussion with a dealer about a one meter pair of transparent
cable that costs 11 thousand dollars.  He looked me straight in the eye
and told me it would DRAMATICALLY improve my system.

And your wife might be seeing pink.  Almost everyone percieves color
different too.  (not to mention 20 % of the male population is color blind)

In the end, I don't think even people that are buying 10 thousand dollar
cables are delusional.  They just have a lot more money than I will ever
have. My ex wives parents were incredibly wealthy and watching them
and their freinds throw money around was pretty bizarre, but who am I to
tell them how to spend it and judge them accordingly?

That's all I'm getting at.

[TONEPUB]

AJ:

Sorry, I was actually quoting two of you and pushed the button too soon.

I can see your point, but unfortunately, a number of people that I know
that are scientists and musicians agree that the measurements don't reveal
everything.

That's the problem we face.

This is a somewhat artistic/emotional issue.

Unfortunately, recorded music is not really an exact representation
of the performance captured, it is someone's artistic perception of
what it sounded like (i.e. the recording engineer and the mastering
engineer).

No two people percieve sound exactly alike, so we are trying to
hit a moving target. All of us, the mfrs. the reviewers and the
consumer.