[JP78]

this amplifier looks amazing.  can anyone who owns the mk.ii or mk.iii tell me if there is a pre-amplifier out that i can use a pair of these amplifiers for horizontal bi-amping?  this kind of power with tubes at this price and simplified cabling is too appealing to get out of my mind.

thanks.

jp

[woodsyi]

Unless you have passive crossover network in place for biamping, you would need an active crossover rather than a conventional preamp to horizontally biamp.  You can certainly biamp vertically if you are going to use two of these.  BTW, I think the MKII did not get favorable reviews from the owners from what I read on AC about a year ago.   

[JP78]

woodsyi,

thank you for the response.

i do have a passive speaker level crossover in place.  vertical biamping would require a dedicated preamplifier, and i want one of the amplifiers to act as an integrated, and the other as the power amplifier.  i just don't like using two different brands of amplifiers because i am sensitive to amplifier coherency.  i don't believe in a lot of audiophilisms, but i do very much believe in biamping rather than purchasing extremely expensive two channels of amplification.  unfortunately, i love tubes, and am going from a p.c. source, so i don't have a lot of options here for very inefficient speakers.  i really loathe to go for a dedicated tube pre-amplifier because i don't have the rack space and don't want to deal with all the additional cables and costs.

i am honest enough to admit aesthetics matter to me and my wife quite a bit, and i do have to consider  all the exposed cabling as well as appearance of the electronics.   i am allowed very little rack space (also have to fit the cable box and dvd player and power protection), so i am trying to get a ton of amplification, tubes, and reduced wiring in a smaller space.  i know, it's a little bit of a puzzle .

i want to try out a lot of speakers, and i am a big fan of impact.  i just haven't ever experienced the ideal type of slam from one amplification channel per speaker.  i want to settle my amplification to a point i can swap out speakers until i can find a suitable replacement or afford to drop in the mbl 101e (love the slam), which is still some time away.  i have vmps and sp technologies on my shortlist, but i want to be able to try them out with enough juice. 

edit: i will search here for more information on the dk.  as a vmps owner, if you have any recommendations please feel free to post.

thanks.

jp

[woodsyi]

JP,

The simplest solution would be to get speakers with powered woofers.  They will already have crossover worked out for you and you can use an integrated amp to power the mid/treble.  In case of VMPS, you can drive the ribbons with as low as 20 watts.  I tried 8 watt SET and it could not get beyond 85 dB in my room although the sound has some mesmerizing qualities.  If you have a volume control on you PC source, a la Squeezebox, you can just use a power amp providing you match the impedance and it has enough gain.  What is your system at the moment?

[Hantra]

I liked this amplifier pretty good.  I got rid of it simply b/c it had something nagging me in the upper midrange that I couldn't finger, plus the resale sucks so bad and I didn't want to take a massive hit on resale. 

Otherwise, it's got decent power, and sounds good.  My speakers are very critical in the midrange, and if something is amiss, they will shout it out at you. 

[JP78]

woodsyi - powered speakers are a good idea in theory, but i haven't listened to any i've liked.  and while i'm not saying they're not out there, i prefer to go conventional audiophile passive speakers because i live in the lighting capital of the world (st petersburg, fl) and don't have room by the speakers for a power protection unit by each speaker.  i think i also just plain prefer passive speakers (something about active speakers makes me nervous) - and in this hobby of ours, it's all about the luxury of preference.

also, i do not want to run power cables with the speaker wire back to the rack.  my speaker wires go through 2" pvc pipe in the walls, and i'm very happy with them and don't want to have to get shielded ones, or have to purchase a 12' pair of expensive power cords. 

i may be a strange audiophile in that as an interior technology designer, aesthetics matter as much sonic quality.  i'd much rather make sure the room looks ideal than close my eyes and repeatedly a/b to listen for minute (or psychoacoustic) differences.  form matters very much to my listening experience.  i will also shamelessly admit most of my purchases (for the 'audiophile' category of equipment) were second-hand when i first tried a brand, but i am brand loyal and will purchase from an authorized reseller for subsequent items.  this was definitely the case with gallo, bpt, and empirical audio.

my system is currently in disarray, but before i changed it was as follows:

gallo nucleus reference 2 (champagne gold to match ring cages of bel canto, black arici stands)
bel canto seti40 + gold ring cages
bpt 3.5 (no faceplate) matte black / bpt jr mk ii matte black
shuttle sff fanless htc pc with ir input for hdd music server, hd dvd movies, pc web surfing, etc  (8.5" wide black box) / modwright cal alpha dac (8.5" wide black box)
scientific atlantic 8600hd cable box with dvr
empirical audio holophonic pc (3)
empirical audio clarity 7 (2)
empirical audio grand slamm (2)
bpt c-7 cables (3)
control4 10.5" (version 1) touchpad master remote control for a/v system
logitech bluetooth dinovo edge keyboard (with mouse tracker built in), slides into charger built into retractable drawer built into underside of sofa
ligne rose crescendo coffee table (raises and lowers to typing height with the pull of a lever)

all components fit into salamander archetype 3.0" rack placed inside the brick fireplace, with a dedicated 20 ampere line installed.  the warm glow from the seti40 in the fireplace is breathtaking with the lights dimmed / off...it really creates for a beautiful listening mood in a very cleanly designed room.

sharp aquos 52" 1080p lcd display
sanus vision full motion mount (to extend and lower over mantle for ideal viewing height / angle and to replace back flush over mantle when not in use)

i can control all my inputs / change my television settings with the touch of a single icon on the touchpad.  the 1900 x 1080 resoluton of my display allows me to have browser windows, my hdd music playlists, and / or windowed hdtv all simultaneously.

--------

hantra - thanks for the heads up.  i will have to consider this problem.  was the midrange nagging with stock and premium tubes?

[Hantra]

It's been a long time, but if I'm not mistaken I think I had some Cca Siemens in there too.  I think those made it worse b/c they're so freaking accurate.  The best tubes I had in it were some of those 6922's that Scott Nixon likes in his DAC.  For the life of me I can't remember the name, but they're not expensive.  They have lots of love, and plenty of range.  Bottom end is not as tight or fast as the Cca, but you can't have it ALL.   

[woodsyi]

JP,

How are you getting your signal from PC?  CAL alpha only takes in SPDIF, right?  Are you using Foobar or something else?  You have a separate storage (NAS?) since shuttle only has so much space?  Post a picture  or two.  I don't think I have ever seen an audio rack full of color coordinated gear in a fireplace.   

BTW, does SETi40 have enough power to drive Gallo Ref 2?  For some reason I assumed they would want more power. 

[JP78]

woodsyi - the alpha takes in optical, coaxial, and at&t glass connections. it does up to 24/96 d to a conversion, and the auto-sensing input switching makes it transparent to use.  unfortunately i sold the gallos and the bel canto, and have pulled out my rack to begin my system renovation.  it's quite the ugly mess until i can shove everything back in there, and i'm embarrassed to show any photos until we're all good to go.  i'm currently using an nad 53 integrated dvd player / receiver hooked up to nht superone from the bedroom system until we can get things in order here.  i will look for some good old photos and send them over to you.  i might not have photos with all the a/v system as it needs to be, but i should have some that are still color-matched .

as to the matching and in-the-fireplace....well it makes for an ideal way for heat to leave the house (important in florida!), and who says i'm any crazier than the rest of us .

every couple of years i update the system - it is such a pain in the ass to remove the rack and hook things up and tidy the wires that i am forced not to fidget with things because of the tremendous trouble i put myself through.

the gallos are a 90db/w/m 4ohm load with no crossover (to steal any power), so they're actually a great match for the seti40.  i am looking for a more detailed sound and more slam! after having a lot more exposure to the orchestra the past couple years.  i will say that the gallo / seti40 combination was absolutely musical and beautiful, but i don't think there's a single ideal system so every few years i overhaul to try a completely new system design philosophy. 

i really enjoyed the sound of the vmps ribbon system i heard at a nyc retailer a few years back. he had the rm30 and the flagship (rm ?), and we listened to both single amp versus biamp.  there was no comparison - that was one of the first times i heard that kind of slam from speakers, and is what led me down this constant questioning of 'what if'.  the ribbon sound was much less strident with all the extra juice as well.

i've also listened to mbl sound the same way with single amplification versus biamplification with similar results, so now i am a firm believer in biamping. 

my shuttle had a 250gbb hdd - i'm getting ready to change to the new biostar case and add a 1tb hdd now while i have the rack out.  i use an ati radeon sapphire with passive heat sink, and the hdd is placed in an hdd silencer to really cut back on seeking noise.  i use a terratec aureon sound card since it does not auto-resample. i use a zalman passive cpu cooler, and have replaced the power supply fan with a special panaflo fan with reduced dc, so you really can't hear the pc at all.  in fact, my hd cable tv box was louder than my pc until i replaced the fan in that as well .

i've definitely ordered the altman dac and will a/b it with the alpha using my sennheiser 650 until i can get some idea of amplification and speakers in place.  these 'audiophile renovations' usually take me a few months, so i'm patient with getting things right until i'm ready to sit back and enjoy for a few years.

-------------

hantra - maybe i will leep an eye out for one used dk design and see what i think with a pair of bookshelf speakers that really won't tax them. for $1300 that amplifier is too good not to take a chance on.  i think it's worth the $200-300 risk to sell immediately if i do not like it.  i'll keep in mind what you said for the tubes and also talk to dan wright...he really seems to know his 6922's.  thanks!

[nicksgem10s]

Hello,

I was one of the earliest adopters of the DK integrated before all the shills came out of the woodwork and there were flaming threads on Audiogon about it being the best amp ever.

It is a nice integrated hybrid amp that is capable of fully driving many speakers.  I used it with Coincident Super Eclipse & later with Von Schweikert VR4 Gen III HSE.  I did not need to bi-amp with the full range VR speakers.  They played plenty loud together.

I owned the stock DK Design integrated for about a year.

I then bought a new DK & had it modified by Parts Connexion (Chris Johnson).  These mods took the amp to another level of performance.

I also tube rolled about every 6922/7308 variant I could get my hands on.  I really liked the Amperex white label PQ tubes in this amp.
I eventually ended up with a pair of Mullard gold pin tubes that had been cryogenically treated and were something around $300/pair.  They were the best tubes I used in the amp for overall performance.  Eventually I found it sounded a little bit veiled no matter what combination of tubes, power cord, or interconnects.

It is a solid performer in stock form and can be improved significantly with modification.  It weighs a lot and I personally didn't care for the looks of it in person.  It combines solid state power and grip in the amp section with the roundness of tubes in the preamp section in one box for a reasonable price (especially now used). 

It was like a boat anchor on the used market and a ton of people who bought them to try sold them at a big loss.  This happens in our hobby often with the flavor of the month.

I would not hesitate to own one in a second system or recommend it to someone on a budget.  The built in phono stage is bettered by many inexpensive phono preamps so if you are going to do vinyl justice you will want an external phono pre.

The interconnects that shipped with the amp originally are actually really nice as a bonus.  I still own a pair today.  The amps were sold long ago.

For the money (used) it is a pretty solid performer.  I thought the remote was terrible and really ugly. 

That about sums it up from my experience.  Hope this helps.

Nick




 

[JP78]

nick - thanks for your response.  i always really value the opinions of owners when it comes to equipment feedback. i looked for pictures online of the back but did not find any - does the dk design have a pre-out on the back of the amplifier?

your comment of 'a little bit veiled' does bother me a bit, but it's a trade-off i'm willing to live with i think if the configuration will fit.  do you think the 'veiled' comment applies equally to both stock and modified product, or both versions altogether?  i don't mind how the original remote works since i intend to use a third party remote control product.

i find that it's not necessarily a function of 'loud enough' as to the reason i want to biamp, but rather because the characteristics of the loudspeaker really improve significantly when biamped.  i know when i listened to the mbl biamped, the characteristic sound really changed from 'decent but slightly tinny / brittle' to 'oh wow'.   still...that's a pipe dream for now.

thanks again for your detailed comments.

[woodsyi]

JP,

I am a big proponent of horizontal bi-amping but you seem to eschew the idea of using different amps for different drivers, i.e. ss on woofers and tubes on mid/tweets.  I,on the other hand, like the use of appropriate amp for each driver idea.  One caveat is that I do employ an active crossover to maximize the cohesion between drivers (driven by different types of amp).  The nagging sense of "veiledness" or congested midrange from this amp as noted by the previous owners -- isn't this the precisely the kind of things you want to avoid on your mid/tweet by bi-amping?  I am guessing that this amp is not as good as more refined amps of lower power on your mid/tweets whether you have ribbons or cones.  It's strong point seems to be gripping bass control and "good but not the best" mid/highs.   IMHO, you are not getting the most benefit of horizontal bi-amping if you use this type of amp on your mid/highs.  In addition, this thing is huge.  Isn't space at a premium in your fireplace?  You can do a lot cheaper with a switcher with high damping power on your woofers. 

[JP78]

woodsyi - your comments do ring very true.  i do lose a lot of the benefit by horizontal biamping versus vertical biamping; and maybe my borderline obsession with not going with a tube preamplifier should be set aside. 

I only have room for two boxes on the rack; and though the dk is quite large,  the heatsinks are on the sides so I figured not to need very much breathing room before the next shelf.  i could theoretically vertically biamp with two of the dk design integrated if i use the pre-out and main-in with custom 1->2 rca interconnects, though i really hesitate to do it because it's a large gamble.

i think you're fortunate as a vmps owner that your crossover points are so low.  quite a few of the speakers i want to try out are much higher up, close to that magic 1-2kHz that human hearing is so sensitive to.  going with two different amplifiers around this hearing range may cause coherency issues...i've experienced this in my system before and i hate the things it does with soundstaging and believability of instrumental tone really distract me from listening.

and ultimately i would rather have enough power and slightly veiled versus that strident sound that makes speakers sound more brittle or harsh from not having enough power.

i really love the dehavilland tube preamplifiers, but my wife hates the way it looks (too retro!).  do you think i would be better served by getting a multichannel amplifier to biamp like that california audio labs mca 2500 and then a dedicated preamplifier (~$2500 used)?   i really like the preamplifier stage of my bel canto...they have an sep1 dedicated tubed preamplifier i can find used within my budget. of ~$3500 for the amplifier+pre.  or any other recommendations you have i would really like to listen to.

thanks for your time.

[woodsyi]

JP, 

It's hard to say what combinations would be good without knowing what speakers you plan to audition.  Did I read that you now have the Gallo ref 3.1s? 

If you are set on biamping and you want to try different speakers, perhaps you should look at a DEQX?  It could help with room correction too.  (I am assuming you don't have many bass traps in your room)

[JP78]

woodsyi,

i did have the gallo reference 2.0, which I recently sold.  It had the large spun aluminum balls with the cdt tweeter, very different from from the new 3.1.

currently i am listening to nht superones from the bedroom system with the nad l53 integrated receiver / dvd player...trying to figure out where to get my juice from so i can start the speaker merry go round soon to follow .

i do actually have two bass tri-traps from gik acoustics - they are hidden in large closets in the room.  surprisingly, they do make a huge difference.  i also have some custom gik 222 panels...identical to the 242 but in a 2' x 2' square...they look very nice mounted horizontally across the back of the room.

i am just starting about room correction with the pc as a source...do you have any knowledge of this? do you run a switching amp for the bottom portion of your vmps?

edit: i did read your system profile.  you have a very nice setup...with some very nice power going to your speakers....i'm sure you agree that the biamping did make a tremendous difference in dynamics of your speakers...i am sure they love current.