GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)

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ginger

GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)
« on: 28 Aug 2003, 02:02 am »
RIAA Spec is for breakpoints at 75us (2122 Hz Low pass), 318us (500Hz High Pass) and 318us (50Hz Low Pass). In addition IEC recommends an additional Low Frequency roll off bellow 16 Hz.

The GK1 Phono does the 318us and the 3180us breakpoints in feedback around the op amp and the 75us passively after the opamp.

The 75us is quite a bit off which may result in not enough highs (won't be bright enough).

The 75us time constant is formed by R6 (39K) parallel with R7 (2K2) in series with C3 (47nF) - Its currently at 98us

I've pointed this out to Hugh who will be shipping new units with R6 and R7 = 3K3. (TC = 77 us)

For a quick fix for all those with built and running units simply replace R6 (the 39K) with 5K6 and leave R7 at 2K2. This gives TC = 74.2 us

Given the tolerance on the capacitor either "fix" is fine.

The R2 C1 combination adds the additional low frequency roll off as recommended by IEC to get response well down at rumble frequencies.

C1 = 100uF gives roll below off about 10Hz. I changed C1 to 68uF on my unit to move this low frequency roll off to 16 Hz BUT 47uF would also be fine giving 20Hz roll off.

Cheers
Ginger

ginger

Spice Simulation results for R6 R7 Phono Preamp mod
« Reply #1 on: 28 Aug 2003, 07:30 am »
I have just run spice simultion on the Phono Preamp.

With the old R6 = 39K and R7 = 2K2 High Frequencey response is down about 1dB at 1 kHz and is a bit over 2dB down from 2 kHz out to 100kHz

With either the new values of R6 = R7 = 3K3
OR
R6 = 5K6 and R7 = 2K2

RIAA response is accurate within 0.1dB - ONLY tossers claim to be able to hear variations of 0.1dB. I certainly can't.

Cheers,
Ginger

AKSA

GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)
« Reply #2 on: 29 Aug 2003, 10:55 pm »
Folks,

My thanks to Ginger for pointing this out;  it was a design error, and his amendment corrects it very nicely.

So, for all those who have built the phono, even better sound ( :oops: ) can be extracted by replacing the 39K resistors on the phono pcb, R6 and R6', with 5K6 resistors in both cases.

This brings a 98uS equalization breakpoint down to 77uS, which is near as dammit to 75uS, the RIAA specification.  It will add a small, measured quantity of air at STP to the proceedings, lending an air of thrilling surrealism....


Thanks Ginger!

Cheers,

Hugh

ginger

Advanced Experimenters ONLY Phono Mod
« Reply #3 on: 2 Sep 2003, 04:45 am »
This is one which is for advanced experimenters ONLY - The standard Phono Amp is fine as it is.

CAVEAT: I have not yet built and tested this (yet) BUT I have modelled it extensively using Spice. The same modelling was how I spotted the original 75 us breakpoint problem mentioned above.

If you like to screw the last little bit out of the Phono Amp in terms of low intermodulation distortion and best overload capability you may wish to try the following mod which shifts the 75us breakpoint to the opamp feedback loop rather than it being done passively following the opamp.

1) Delete R6, R7 and C3 (and R6', R7' and C3')
2) Put Wire Link in place of R6 (and R6')
3) Reduce C1 (and C1') to 47uF and use a Non-Polarised Electrolytic
4) Make up 2 off 8000pF caps by paralleling 4700pF and 3300pF
5) Wire 1 of the 8000pF from pin 1 to pin 2 of the opamp
6) Wire the other 8000pF from pin 6 to pin 7 of the opamp

RIAA response is very slightly compromised BUT overload margin should be improved and intermodulation distortion reduced. Using a nonpolarised electrolytic for C1 should also reduce 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortions a bit. The modified circuit will also be a lot more tolerant of the resonance at 50kHz to 60kHz that many magnetic cartridges exhibit.

I emphasize this is for ADVANCED EXPERIMENTERS ONLY - If you don't feel confident of your ability to do the mod - don't risk stuffing up your GK1.

By the way if you try this mod and think it seriously sucks then post a reply to that effect to save other folks the bother. The theory and the modelling say it should be better BUT in the final evaluation its what the ears say thats important.

Cheers,
Ginger

AKSA

GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)
« Reply #4 on: 2 Sep 2003, 11:16 pm »
Ginger,

Thanks for your input, let me offer a few comments.

In the early design phase back a year ago I considered full feedback equalization, knowing it would have superior overload capacity.

However, I selected an IC with outstanding overload capacity, one which will present 28Vpp at it's output into 600R, translating to around 70mV millivolts of input at 1KHz.  Since most MM cartridges will only ever peak around 35mV absolute max, I felt this was more than enough given the overload of the input stage to the GK-1 occurs around 15Vpp.

With the complete RIAA in the feedback loop proposed by Ginger there are now three breakpoints in this network, 75uS, 318uS and 3180uS - a move up from just two with the insertion of the 75uS breakpoint into the mix.

Present tube lore on RIAA calls for passive RIAA, and often you see it separated into discrete circuit blocks for each breakpoint, usually two.  Frequently it is implemented with inductors, eschewing caps because somehow it is felt inductors are better.  (I think this is extreme because inductors are wonderful aerials for hum intrusion and are VERY expensive.)  The argument goes that while overload margin is not as good with passive networks, the complex phase inter-relationships found within a large, complex network incorporated into the feedback loop can interfere with imaging.

I have no proof of this, but went ahead with the present design, segmenting the equalization regimes, with the 75uS breakpoint handled passively at the output.  I chose an IC with rock solid performance into a capacitive load, and vanishingly low output impedance, and when I finished the design sent it off to Mal Fear for testing.

Those of you watching the design process shrewdly will realize that many choices are made intuitively, often without full mathematical knowledge of all options.  This is a fancy way of saying that design is often undertaken by gifted amateurs who have a 'feel' for the problem, but don't necessarily have all the information at their fingertips.  

Of course, this is true;  but the crunch comes during performance testing, and in any event it has to be said that some designs are inspired, and some are just hack reruns of well understood technology.  The difference, I'd suggest, is the work which goes into the performance testing and subsequent refinement, and of course, luck plays a part as well!

Mal soon came back (he works FAST!) with reports of outstanding imaging, which I sheepishly admit had been my primary goal.  There are many, many circuits which deliver everything except good imaging, and some are priced at the high end.  I like robust bass, mindblowing mids, and heavenly highs, but I've found that if you can get the imaging right, these other qualities seem to fall into place.  This was also the experience with the GK-1 Darl and I developed.  Once imaging was right, the rest was fine, although we had to do a bit more work to optimize the bass.

Since R&D is exciting but costly, and time to market is important for any product, when Mal's response was favorable I punted one off to Mark Whitaker (Oz_Audio, wherefore art thou??) who verified Mal's experiences almost immediately.  I heaved a sigh of relief and placed the phono on the market.  Renzo Carlucci in Rome came back with exactly the same report, further reinforcing the good vibes, but when alerted recently by Bart Shepherd of an issue with the top end, I began to grow uneasy.

Ginger, with his incisive math mind and commendable engineering vigor has unearthed the problem;  the 75uS breakpoint implemented passively at the output of the phono stage.  By changing R6 and R6' (both 39K) on the present phono to 5K6 (half watt metal film in both cases) this problem is solved.  I cannot condemn his suggestion to go full active RIAA, but since the product works like a charm, and is now even better, I can't see a good production reason to change it.  But tweaking is another matter.... :mrgreen:

If people implement this mod, please let me know the results.  I'm sure interested!  But I'll keep it unofficial until Ginger builds it, auditions it, compares it, and a few get around the traps.

Thanks Ginger.  Appreciated.    :thankyou:

Cheers,

Hugh

Malcolm Fear

GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)
« Reply #5 on: 3 Sep 2003, 08:35 am »
Re Barts trepidation.

Bart was worried when listening to Pink Floyd - The Wall at my place a couple of days after AKSAfest. I cleaned the stylus soon after he left. There was a great glob of "navel lint" on the stylus. Bart was more impressed the next time he heard it.

I found the imaging of the phono, to be the equal of the GK-1 itself. It seemed to subtract nothing from the experience. Also the way in which "clicks and plops" are handled is very impressive.

Oz_Audio

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 109
GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)
« Reply #6 on: 3 Sep 2003, 10:05 pm »
I have been missing in action!!!  Its been busy up here and all things audio have been pushed into the background.  Though I have been listening alot enjoying the sound and not thinking about the "Stereo".

The soldering iron will be warmed up this weekend and report back.

Mark

AKSA

GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)
« Reply #7 on: 3 Sep 2003, 10:09 pm »
Hi Mark,

Welcome back!  I take it things are warming up (or is that 'cooling off'?) for the tourist season?

Cheers,

Hugh

ginger

Advanced Experimenters Mod - Phono Amp discussion
« Reply #8 on: 4 Sep 2003, 05:05 am »
Hugh is absolutely "spot on" when he talks about imaging and phase response. From this point of view the RIAA accuracy is paramount. The accuracy of the standard GK1 Phono circuit (once the 75us breakpoint mod is made) is within 0.1dB of the required curve, which in hi-fi techno babble means that it earns the label "Precision RIAA Equalisation" - that is it exactly opposes the pre-emphasis used when cutting the disc.

Precision RIAA Equalisation will ensure that the phase relationship between the "fundamental" musical notes AND their harmonic content will be faithfully restored to original. What do we mean by that? When RIAA Accuracy suffers not only do you get wrongly emphasised or de-emphasised musical notes (frequencies) BUT possibly more importantly the phase relationship between the "note" and its "harmonic content" gets skewed. This WILL effect the imaging AND in fact may also change the perceived "timbre" of the musical note.

My suggested "Advance Experimenters ONLY" idea DOES compromise the RIAA accuracy a little - in fact EVERY Phono preamp circuit which attempts to do all three breakpoints in feedback around a single amplifier stage suffers this RIAA accuracy trade off. This MAY mean that imaging is degraded and if this is indeed the case then it is one for the "dead" files.

I'm not too upset about this - as an Electronic Design Engineer of 20+ years the number of my designs that are in the "dead" files is legion. My philosophy has always been "dive in and have a go" - sure you'll stuff up but treat each stuff up as a learning experience and when queried on the progress by the Technical Manager you can honestly say "I'm making progress - I now know 5 ways NOT to do it" or "I've advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement".
In the final analysis - If you don't try you can't succeed.

A number of standard configurations have evolved over the years. The most accurate method of applying RIAA equalisation is to pair the 318us and 3180us breakpoints and treat the 75us separately. This is indeed what the "standard" GK1 Phono Preamp does.

To maximise overload  capability and minimise intermodulation distortions and noise it IS beneficial to do the 75us breakpoint (the 2122Hz roll off) as early as possible so that the following amplifier stage(s) don't have to cope with the higher frequencies and slew rates.

To do this however invariably requires a 2 stage phono amp. While it is possible to do the 75us breakpoint passively before a single amp which does the other two breakpoints this requires other compromises.

The "standard" GK-1 Phono Amp is a fine example of the "less is more" design philosophy or the Einstein version which is "make it as simple as possible BUT no simpler".

Don't let this put you off the experiment - but be prepared to put it back the way it was if you percieve no improvement OR in fact a degradation in performance.

My GK1 is sitting in limbo at the moment with all PCBs loaded - I'm waiting on the Hammond 16 x 8 x 3 inch Satin Black Steel Chassis to arrive from Canada. As soon as its here I'll try the mod and report back. Actually I'm waiting for 2 off these chassis. One for the 55 W Nivarna to go on the bottom - heatsink to the front, and one to house the GK1 sitting on top of the first. Oz folk - agent for Hammond chassis is Arthur at EVATCO in Melbourne.
 
Cheers,
Ginger

Malcolm Fear

GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)
« Reply #9 on: 8 Sep 2003, 07:20 am »
I made the change to the RIAA section,  replacing the 39K resistors on the phono pcb, R6 and R6', with 5K6 resistors.
It certainly has added a lot of sparkle. I like it.

ginger

Another couple of cheap minor Phono Mods
« Reply #10 on: 9 Sep 2003, 01:23 am »
Malcolm and others,

If you look at your board you will see that the left and right channel Phono Amp inputs go thru' a couple of 0R resitor links. These 0R links can be replaced by ferrite bead inductors such as the Murata BL01RN-1-A62 (Radio Spares 239-589) @ 44 cents each. This will block any Radio Frequency (RF) picked up by the input cables.

It is also useful to try and provide the 300 to 400 pF capacitive load recommended for magnetic phono cratridges. Some of this load will be provided by the shunt capacitance of input cables themselves and the rest is provided by the Capacitor CL shown on the circuit diagram.

EDIT: SEE LATER POST BELOW FOR CL VALUE OPTIMISATION

As a start point for CL use the 47pF Silver Micas you pulled from your AKSA amps as part of the Nivarna Upgrade and solder one of these directly across each of the 47K resitors from the left and right inputs to 0V. In addition to providing a more ideal load to the cartridge these will assist the RF Bead in blocking RF from entering the amp. If you are running very short input cables you may need a larger cap - anything up to about 270pF maximum value. Keeping RF out of Audio Circuits ALWAYS improves the sound - particularly detail and imaging.

Along these lines I will be conducting a few experiments on adding RF Filters to GK1,AKSA etc. Power Supply Lines in the near future and will advise if any significant improvement is seen.

I would also recommend replacing C1 (the 100uF electrolytic) with a Non-Polarised Electrolytic of either 47uF (for 20Hz low frequency roll off) or 68uF (for a 16 Hz low frequency roll off). The purpose of this roll off is to make sure that response is well down at Turntable Rumble Frequencies (which I think are at about 3 Hz - someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Cheers,
Ginger

ginger

Optimising Magnetic Cartridge Loading - the CL Capacitor
« Reply #11 on: 19 Sep 2003, 04:57 am »
I did some more research on this.

Shure (typical) data sheets say optimum load for their cartridges is 47K parallel with 250pF capacitance. (This is a bit lower than the value I quoted above)

The GK-1 Phono option gives you the 47K load and to optimise we just need to get the 250pF capacitance right.

I disconnected the cartridge on my turntable (Pioneer Unit with Shure M91E Cartridge) at home and measured the cable capacitance of the approx 3 foot lead to the preamp phono input. (using an old valve LCR bridge and then repeated with a modern multimeter)

Measured cable capacitance was 85 to 90pF from both measuring instruments. This stacks up with the usual way of estimating cable capacitance which is to allow about 30pF per foot.

This means to match the 250pF recommended load we need to add CL of 150pF across the 47K resistor (better to ere on the low side rather than the high side). If you run very short cables (less than 2 feet) then use 180pF.

Note that while CL is shown on the Schematic there is no provision for it on the PCB. Simply solder it directly across the 47K Input Resistor

Hope this is of assitance to those wondering what CL value to use. For those who built the phono section with no CL ( most of you I would think)try adding the capacitor. A good quality polypropylene will fit nicely.

Cheers,
Ginger

Malcolm Fear

GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)
« Reply #12 on: 19 Sep 2003, 06:00 am »
Hi Ginger.
I built the phono without a capacitor.
I use a Koetsu cartridge. I built a head amp, using low noise Jfets and 12 volt gelpack batteries.
Would I still require a cap int the phono section of the GK-1?

ginger

Koetsu Cartridge with J FET Head Amp
« Reply #13 on: 19 Sep 2003, 06:29 am »
Malcolm,
In short NO.

Since you are running a head amp between the cartridge and the GK-1 Phono Input it is the Head Amp Input which needs to be optimised to properly load the Koetsu Cartridge.

Having said that, the Koetsu is a bit of a weird beast. Its recommended load according to their web site is 5K to 100K (pure resistive load - no capacitor required). In other words is extremely load tolerant.

I was a bit feaked by the prices listed for the cartridge but it sounds to me that you are doing everything possible to screw the best out of what (according to the specifications) is a very high quality device.

The ONLY caution I would offer is watch the gain of the head amp - you don't want any more than a gain of 10, ideally about 8, otherwise you may overdrive the GK-1 Phono Input. (the web site suggested its output level is 0.6mV whereas typical magnetic cartiridge is about 5mV)

If you fitted the RF Beads mentioned above in place of the 0R links to the Phono Input you might still add a small (47pF or less) cap purely to assist RF blocking from the input BUT the head amp should have a low impedance drive and so RF Pickup is NOT likely to be a problem. I don't think I would bother - probably could'nt tell any difference.


Cheers,
Ginger

Oz_Audio

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 109
GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)
« Reply #14 on: 27 Sep 2003, 03:36 am »
Well the weekend job took 4 weeks to do!  Fishing, kids, a week and a half in Adelaide and another week in Coolum (Sunshine Coast in QLD).

Its finally done and the treble is very forward and detailed.  I will hvae to listen to it more before I descide to keep the 5K6 or go to something inbetween.

I will be changing the D26 Vifa to the X25 in 2 weeks, so I may wait and see.

I will keep you all informed.

Mark

PS. back to Adelaide on Monday for another week!!

Oz_Audio

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 109
GK1 - Phono RIAA minor mod(s)
« Reply #15 on: 27 Sep 2003, 01:13 pm »
A few years ago, I would listen to my Turntable and occasionally listen to a CD player.  I only occasionally listened to a CD player because the Turntable was so much better, more alive and very clear highs.

Fast forward to now and my old cartridge has failed, a Linn Karma, and I got used to listening to CD sound and thought the low resolution in the high end was my loss of hearing.....until now.

After listening to a number of ablums and the CD's of the same album, I am now glad that I still have all my vinyl.

The difference in sound is breathtaking.  All the resolution in the high end is back.