[jqp]

Is it worth the $3000-5000 to "upgrade" your home theater to use allow for HDMI in the source, switchers/processors, and display(s) ? What is wrong with component? Have you been able to detect a difference between HDMI and component/analog audio or even fiber optic audio?

[Bigfish]

I was under the impression that the big advantage of HDMI is in video quality, not audio quality.  I am running HDMI straight from the BluRay Player to Plasma TV and Fiber Optic cable for audio from the DVD to Denon 3806 AVR.  I could run HDMI to the Denon 3806 and then to the Plasma.  I felt this would cost me video quality over the way I am running the connections.  I am very interested in comments about this set-up.

Thanks,

Ken

[Docutech]

Both audio and video benefit from the HDMI interface. 

Weather you will benefit from it depends on your source. Over the air HD is an example. Since I dont own a Dish or HD cable package I cannot detest to its quality but I do know that it is compressed in order to get it to John Q. Customer.

With Blu Ray and HD pumping out ungodly amounts of data video wise, It would make sense to upgrade to HDMI only if you have gear that can support it. Video in HDMI can top 24 bit at 165 Megapixels per second (thats just under 4 gigs per second!) and that is just the beginning. Add to that the 6 channel audio found in most movies today and you are talking a LOT of data.  Todays HDMI is capable of doing all this and then some.  I believe there is enough headroom today to even include 8 channel audio at 24bit @ 192khz.  DVD audio anyone?
Try this with an optical connection  aa

As technology progresses I feel that those numbers will rise dramatically, but by then  who knows what formats will be available 
If you are happy with what you have, by all means enjoy it! If you want to kick things up notches unknown, go HDMI.

[samplesj]

I was under the impression that the big advantage of HDMI is in video quality, not audio quality.  I am running HDMI straight from the BluRay Player to Plasma TV and Fiber Optic cable for audio from the DVD to Denon 3806 AVR.  I could run HDMI to the Denon 3806 and then to the Plasma.  I felt this would cost me video quality over the way I am running the connections.  I am very interested in comments about this set-up.

While HDMI doesn't over an audio quality advantage over 7.1 analog hookups, it does offer a big advantage over digital optical/coax.  HDMI can carry 7.1 uncompressed audio channels instead of using lossy compression like optical/coax.  This means you really need to be either using the 7.1 analog hookups from your blu-ray player OR HDMI to get the full audio quality.

As long as the 3806 will pass 1080p why would you lose quality over the minor loss for just another cable/connection interface?

[Toka]

I think it will be worth it eventually but I'm not fully jumping on that ship until they iron everything out. Not a whole lot out there yet that supports 1.3, and who knows what else they'll come up with. 

[ctviggen]

While HDMI doesn't over an audio quality advantage over 7.1 analog hookups, it does offer a big advantage over digital optical/coax.  HDMI can carry 7.1 uncompressed audio channels instead of using lossy compression like optical/coax.  This means you really need to be either using the 7.1 analog hookups from your blu-ray player OR HDMI to get the full audio quality.

I'm not sure how big this advantage is.  To get this advantage, you're going to have to get (1) a player that supports this, (2) disks that supports this, and (3) Hollywood to allow this to happen.  I thought Hollywood was balking at this?  You'll also have to have the latest and greatest decoders.  Are there currently any titles in Bluray or HD-DVD that support uncompressed 7.1 audio?  Also, you'd then have to have those 7.1 channels.  I still only have 5.1, mainly because I'm not willing to spend the cash for another two channels, don't have any media that actually support 7.1, and don't have space for another two speakers.  Now, if you have 7 speakers and one or more subs, then this is a feature you might one day use (of course by then, HDMI 1.5 will be out and your version will be useless). 

Also, I don't think HDMI is the panacea most people make it out to be.  See the following article, which discusses "real world" HDMI:

Blue Jeans Cable HDMI Article

Now, I finally "upgraded" to HDMI, only because I had to.  My preamp is going bad and I had to change to HDMI.  I'm still interested in comparing my DVD player using component with my DVD player using HDMI.  I'll have to post on this, once I finally get around to doing it.

http://bluejeanscable.com/articles/whats-the-matter-with-hdmi.htm

[samplesj]

While HDMI doesn't over an audio quality advantage over 7.1 analog hookups, it does offer a big advantage over digital optical/coax.  HDMI can carry 7.1 uncompressed audio channels instead of using lossy compression like optical/coax.  This means you really need to be either using the 7.1 analog hookups from your blu-ray player OR HDMI to get the full audio quality.

I'm not sure how big this advantage is.  To get this advantage, you're going to have to get (1) a player that supports this, (2) disks that supports this, and (3) Hollywood to allow this to happen.  I thought Hollywood was balking at this?  You'll also have to have the latest and greatest decoders.  Are there currently any titles in Bluray or HD-DVD that support uncompressed 7.1 audio?  Also, you'd then have to have those 7.1 channels.  I still only have 5.1, mainly because I'm not willing to spend the cash for another two channels, don't have any media that actually support 7.1, and don't have space for another two speakers.  Now, if you have 7 speakers and one or more subs, then this is a feature you might one day use (of course by then, HDMI 1.5 will be out and your version will be useless). 

Ok, there are a couple of different things going on here.

The first is for some reason EVERYONE thinks you have to do all the decoding in the prepro/receiver.  Nope, that isn't true.  I'm not even sure why you'd want to.  Look around at some HDMI non-hostile sites or read some of the threads on AVS.  1.1 is all you will ever need for streaming the actual decoded stream over.  I'm not aware of any current player than can't decode.  While you are correct that if you want the prepro/receiver to decode you need a supporting player and HDMI 1.3 what does that buy you over 1.1 and decoding in the player.  Note that even though you are decoding in the player its still a digital stream that gets processed by the prepro/receivers DAC so any bass management is done without extra an ADC (like would be needed to do it via the 7.1 inputs).  So your comment about 1.5 making the current version useless is totally noise because 1.1 is all you need it cannot be changed.  Do you really think future players are going to drop the decoder?  Look at cheap dvd players today, even they have analog out so you can hookup to whatever without needing a decoder.  Do you see us moving from that extra connectivity?  As long as you have the decoder and at least 1.1 you are set.  Heck my gear won't support 1.3 and I'm in no hurry to upgrade at all.  I'd much rather let the player do the decoding so my receiver processor is free to do other stuff.  1.1 is the cornerstone and the rest is just further enhancements (but will be backward compatable).

Just as a quick example I pulled 2 red and 2 blue disks out of my stack (I'm currently loading them all in dacal libraries for easy access so the boxes are just right here).  Both bluray disks offer 5.1 uncompressed.  You are correct that isn't 7.1 pcm, BUT even 5.1 uncompressed is better than DD or DTS since they are lossy compression.  The red disks both don't offer uncompressed, but they do offer TrueHD which is lossless so it shouldn't really that far from uncompressed (look at the whole flac vs wav thing) as compared to lossy DD and DTS.  This means it is NOW.  Not in the future and it isn't being held back by the studios.  As far as 7.1, I'm not aware of any offhand, but "The Descent" has a 6.1 uncompressed track.

While it is true that 6.1/7.1 movies are hard to find, the fact that you aren't running 7.1 doesn't mean that in a general discussion it is fair to dismiss them.  Greater than 5.1 is slow to catch on, but there are present.  This was true even for non HD formats.  Stuff like LOTR is available today on normal DVD with 6.1 DTS.  So for your personal implementation it may be fair to say that 6.1/7.1 isn't important, but you can't dismiss it for everyone based on your circumstances because others may want that support.

[KKM]

Ok, not quite understanding all this but I am in the market for a flat panel, LCD or Plasma, to mount over the fireplace. Already have the drywalls cut out to mount a outlet and will buy wires for the video connection to snake through and come out on the bottom of the next wall.

I did purchase a HDMI 1.3a wire thinking this is the latest so that in the future I wouldn't have to snake any more wires through. Not sure what new TV or DVD player I will purchase, but if it just has a regular HDMI will this wire work? I'm just using HDMI for video.

Any other suggestions to snake any other wires through since I have the wall open?

Thanks all.

[samplesj]

I did purchase a HDMI 1.3a wire thinking this is the latest so that in the future I wouldn't have to snake any more wires through. Not sure what new TV or DVD player I will purchase, but if it just has a regular HDMI will this wire work? I'm just using HDMI for video.

Any other suggestions to snake any other wires through since I have the wall open?

Its coffee break time, so I'll post something.

Right now I only have fished a HDMI cable from my rack in a different room to the projector.  In the past I've run svideo, component, and DVI, but its just HDMI now.

If you knew everything you'd be running up front it, I'd be tempted to say just run HDMI if you knew it was supported, but you could end up needing component (unlikely, but ......).

If you can easily fish them now, but can't later then it wouldn't hurt to add a component set.  Maybe even a few strong strings (to pull new cables into place) [even if you aren't using conduit it could help].

[JeffB]

My DVD player just broke.  I was able to borrow a brand new model from work with HDMI output.
My TV(Sony 50" rear-projection LCD) already supported HDMI.
My previous DVD was connected using composite only.
I connected the new player with HDMI.
I don't notice any difference.  Of course I have no way to A/B compare them.
However, from memory I don't notice a difference.
I confirmed that the new DVD player was upconveting to 1080i. 
I don't think a capable swap is going to amount to a significant difference in picture quality.

However, if you are thinking of upgrading your TV, that might have a significant impact.  The LCDs and Plasma's keep getting better.
Also OTA HDTV is vastly superior to my standard NTSC cable and DVD.

[ted_b]

I'm not aware of any current player than can't decode.

?? There are many players that don't decode TrueHD or DTS-MA, including a relatively new Samsung 1200.  The 1400 (Sep-Oct) and scheduled 2400 (Nov) do, but that feature is actually one of the ones driving the interest.  The lack of decoding at the player level is why some of the early HD/BR discs contain raw uncompressed PCM tracks, a disc feature that will fade away as more and more players decode all new codecs. 

I do agree that the HDMI 1.3 bandwagon is overblown.  That level of compressed lossless support is only really relevant once receivers and pre/pros get their decoding engines, assuming you want to go that direction.

[samplesj]

I'm not aware of any current player than can't decode.

?? There are many players that don't decode TrueHD or DTS-MA, including a relatively new Samsung 1200.  The 1400 (Sep-Oct) and scheduled 2400 (Nov) do, but that feature is actually one of the ones driving the interest.  The lack of decoding at the player level is why some of the early HD/BR discs contain raw uncompressed PCM tracks, a disc feature that will fade away as more and more players decode all new codecs. 

I do agree that the HDMI 1.3 bandwagon is overblown.  That level of compressed lossless support is only really relevant once receivers and pre/pros get their decoding engines, assuming you want to go that direction.

You are right, sorry I was overgeneralizing.  Not all players are going to have all decoders, but there is going to be a minimum.  I'd be surprised if it isn't mandated by the specs.  And even if your current player doesn't support a spec, it is almost always cheaper to buy a new player than a new pre/pro or receiver.  So I'd still stand by the HDMI 1.1 at the pre/pro or receiver level is good enough.

But do any players not have decoders for Dolby Digital Plus.  And of course uncompressed PCM doesn't need to be decoded at all.  So even if you can't do trueHD/DTS-HD/DTS-MA you've got them.  I think all of the HDDVD players can do trueHD and DTS-HD can't they?  I know my entry level HD-A1 will so I assumed they could.  With respect to DTS-MA I'm pretty sure the HD-A1 is right out and I'm not sure if the ps3 will today or not, but I'm sure its just a firmware update.

I think we're agreeing more than disagreeing and just spoke too quickly with a blanket statement.

[samplesj]

My DVD player just broke.  I was able to borrow a brand new model from work with HDMI output.
My TV(Sony 50" rear-projection LCD) already supported HDMI.
My previous DVD was connected using composite only.
I connected the new player with HDMI.
I don't notice any difference.  Of course I have no way to A/B compare them.
However, from memory I don't notice a difference.
I confirmed that the new DVD player was upconveting to 1080i. 
I don't think a capable swap is going to amount to a significant difference in picture quality.

However, if you are thinking of upgrading your TV, that might have a significant impact.  The LCDs and Plasma's keep getting better.
Also OTA HDTV is vastly superior to my standard NTSC cable and DVD.

Depending on the quality of the DAC in the player and the ADC in the digital display (all LCD/DLP/LCoS [D-ILA & SXRD] are digital) it may or may not make a difference in a pure cable swap mode.  With component you are going from digital to analog in the player via its DAC and then from analog back to digital in the display via its ADC whereas with HDMI/DVI you are skipping that extra process.  Its very possible you wouldn't see a difference if the DAC/ADC is "good".

So a signal that can be passed via component OR HDMI may be better either way, but HDMI isn't just a different cable carrying the same signals as before.  There are signals it can carry that cannot be carried by other options. 


EDIT:  Sorry please include plasmas in the above list of digital displays.

[ted_b]

I'm not aware of any current player than can't decode.

?? There are many players that don't decode TrueHD or DTS-MA, including a relatively new Samsung 1200.  The 1400 (Sep-Oct) and scheduled 2400 (Nov) do, but that feature is actually one of the ones driving the interest.  The lack of decoding at the player level is why some of the early HD/BR discs contain raw uncompressed PCM tracks, a disc feature that will fade away as more and more players decode all new codecs. 

I do agree that the HDMI 1.3 bandwagon is overblown.  That level of compressed lossless support is only really relevant once receivers and pre/pros get their decoding engines, assuming you want to go that direction.

You are right, sorry I was overgeneralizing.  Not all players are going to have all decoders, but there is going to be a minimum.  I'd be surprised if it isn't mandated by the specs.  And even if your current player doesn't support a spec, it is almost always cheaper to buy a new player than a new pre/pro or receiver.  So I'd still stand by the HDMI 1.1 at the pre/pro or receiver level is good enough.

But do any players not have decoders for Dolby Digital Plus.  And of course uncompressed PCM doesn't need to be decoded at all.  So even if you can't do trueHD/DTS-HD/DTS-MA you've got them.  I think all of the HDDVD players can do trueHD and DTS-HD can't they?  I know my entry level HD-A1 will so I assumed they could.  With respect to DTS-MA I'm pretty sure the HD-A1 is right out and I'm not sure if the ps3 will today or not, but I'm sure its just a firmware update.

I think we're agreeing more than disagreeing and just spoke too quickly with a blanket statement.

Yes, we are on same side here.  HDMI 1.x is plenty of bandwidth for 7.1 lossless PCM, which is what we want.  I just wanted to say that there are a boatload of players that suprisingly don't decode even the basic "new codecs' which most people see as Dolby TrueHD (and DTS-HD-MA to a lesser extent), even ones released in the past 60 days!.  In fact, MA support is way down the pike for most manufacturers, but then it is for most labels, too, for some reason.  And I guess  DTS-HD is not enough, there are levels (like MA).   So, people need to understand that as long as their Player decodes TrueHD and DTS-HD then they need not fret over HDMI 1.3, but don't assume your new player from Best Buy decodes. 

A fellow was selling a Samsung 1200 here in AC a few days ago and stated it was the top dawg with Samsung.  I was very close to posting that it was a misleading statement (the 1200 isn't their top tier player, and doesn't decode...has a nice video upconverter chip, but doesn't decode) but PM'd him instead.  The 1400 (decodes and has 5.1 anaolog outs) is already selling at CC and elsewhere, and the 2400 (7.1 analog outs, HDMI 1.3 and the nice video chip from the 1200) is announced and pre-selling for November.....and that's just one manufacturers mess.  No wonder the market is confusing.

[Sonny]

Yes, if you choose the Oppo 981HD for $229 on amazon...

[samplesj]

Yes, if you choose the Oppo 981HD for $229 on amazon...

Why not the Toshiba HD-A2 for $240.  That is only $11 more and it comes with 5 free HD DVD movies (as long as you've not already gotten them from another player).

I'm not advocating HD DVD over Blu ray (or the other way around), but it is the cheapest from either camp.  Sure its only 1080i native on HD DVD, but that sure beats 480p native on DVD.  It upsamples just like the Oppo.  I actually didn't feel like I lost any quality when I replaced my Denon 3910 for a HD-A1.  [I had them both in the house at the same time and did the testing with my Benq8700 not my current projector].