[bluesky]

I am in the market for a decent, but cost effective turntable and have visited many sites looking at what's available.  I am thinking of either the Rega Planar 3 or the Technics SL 1200.

I would like to know what opinions people have of the Technics, I find it  strange that KAB can't talk highly enough of it and that it is a DJ standard and yet it seems to be rarley mentioned in the mainstream audio media.  

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I am new to the vinyl scene.

Ian
Brisbane, Australia

[Tonto Yoder]

There are two members here who are high on the Technics 1200.
I've never heard a 1200, so I'll  suspend disbelief.  You might search the archives here or go to the discussion forums on Audiogon for further opinion.  Certainly, inclusion of the 1200 as an audiophile TT is a minority opinion and the fact it's on KAB's site (which also has that Vestax glow-in-the-dark scratcher's TT and Califone portables) doesn't convince me to try one.

Personally, I'd go with the Rega (even though I've never heard one of those either). They have a reputation amongst audiophiles that CAN'T be totally undeserved.  One good thing about that reputation is that you COULD resell a Rega easily to other audiophiles. Sorry that I can't provide an informed opinion, but hope these random thoughts are of some value to you (you might include the NAD 533 in your searches since it's very similar to the Rega--maybe you can audition locally???)

BTW, what IS the price of a Rega over there????

[Batman]

Ok, this is my first post here and I'm gonna take the other side. My wife is not an audiophile but she likes records. Her four year-old Music Hall MMF 2 developed a bad platter bearing. Since she's not an audiophile (she doesn't even clean her records!) and I was curious about the technics, I decided to get her one to see what they are all about.  Let me tell you that the SL 1200 is indeed a serious entry-level turntable that you should consider, depending on your needs and plans.

I bought mine from a DJ and it came with a DJ cartridge with a conical stylus. I plugged it in and spun an LP and couldn't listen for more thant a minute, the sound was so horrific. I thought I had made a big mistake.  

I had the technics in my dedicated listening room while I set it up, (you can see my sytem at AA) alongside my Teres turntable. I installed the ever popular Grado Black cartride in it.  Set up correctly and with the proper cartride the Techincs was an excellent performer. It produced a soundstage as wide and deep as my Teres with a Dynavector 10X4 and had very good tonal balance. There was separation of instuments but it was not as pronounced as my Teres. Compared to my Teres the sound was EVER SO SLIGHTLY veiled but certainly not any worse than any other entry-level table and low-priced catridge.  There was no hum or no motor noise.  At 1.7g VTF it tracked two of the three tracking test bands on the HFNRR test record and the cartidge/arm resonance point was 10-11Hz..The Techinics tracked much better than her Music Hall ever did and sounded much better too.

I listened almost 100 LP's over two weeks and never got tired of listening to it.  There were only a few downsides.  The Grado Black did not track warped records well. This is becasue the Grado doesn't have a damped suspension.  I would guess one of the Sure cartrides (like the M97) or perhaps one of the better Golrings or Stantons  might do better in this tonearm.  The tonearm is a bit heavy (12g effective mass) so one has to carefully pick a cartirdige to match this arm so as  to keep the resonance in the proper range.

You can buy one of the low-end audiophile tables, but then your gonna end up spending money to tweak it once you decide that you want a better vinyl rig.  In my book better to invest in the Technics, which will hold it's resale value, use it as long as you want and then sell it for about what you paid for it. Do not overlook this TT it is indeed a good performer.

Only one additional caveat. Try not to find one that has not seen DJ service becasue some DJ's do goofy things to the tonearm bearnings in order to be able to do "scratching". I had to completely readjust the tonearm bearings in mine and  since they were tightened down way too tightly.

[dogberry]

My friend has one and I borrowed it for several months before I got my MMF-7.  He paid $399 and it was a pretty good table.  He didn't have room for it at the time, but he did upgrade it in two ways and each was significant.  The best thing is I got to enjoy it!  What a pal!

First he bought the Groovemaster cart for it.  It was $199.  BIG difference over the stock Trackmaster.

Then he bought the Fluid Damper for it.  That was $149.  Another BIG improvement.  Total paid: $749.  This is now a very nice table indeed.

Here's the rub: I paid $850 for the Music Hall MMF-7 and it spanks the Technics, even with these upgrades.

If you're only going to pay $399 for a stock unit, you won't be going wrong.  But you can do better.  You do have to pay for it though.

[bluesky]

Thanks for all this information.

I guess what I am thinking is that the Technics has a very solid reputation for reliability but is only average in a couple of areas.  Namely the tonearm and cartridge.  I have not seen much about about upgrading the tonearm.  Is it a reasonable proposition to put say, an Origin Live RB250 arm on the Technics?  This way I could have my cake and eat it too.

Long term reliability is a big issue for me because I am unable to work full time due to a car accident and in the near future I will get the insurance payout.  This will be invested but I am allowing myself a couple of audio items so my decisions are fairly crucial.

My thoughts are currently running towards the Technics but I need to work out if I can upgrade it to prouduce some pretty good sonics over time.  Second hand Rega's are an option but I have noticed that their popularity is making them a bit pricey and I would need to get it from the UK as very few are available off Ebay in Australia.

A new Rega costs around $1,000AUD ($640USD) here in Australia.  The Technics can be bought for considerably less, so there would be some money left over for upgrades.  I would get the KAB power supply, dampener and a good cartridge first.  I would then look at the tonearm down the track but don't know if this is really feasable to do.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Ian

[bluesky]

I have just being doing some research and found that Origin Live has an armboard specifically for mounting Rega tonearms on the SL1200.

I don't suppose anyone has tried this modification?

Cheers, Ian

[taketwo]

I have just being doing some research and found that Origin Live has an armboard specifically for mounting Rega tonearms on the SL1200.

I don't suppose anyone has tried this modification?

Cheers, Ian

This is very interesting. I currently have an unused Rega RB250 with the OL Counterweight and a Technics SL1200 MKII + Shure M97E (not a bad combo actually). Wonder if the OL armboard can take in the normal Rega RB250 or does it have to be a special OL RB250 arm.

[Batman]

As much as I liked the Sl 1200 I would not recommend it as a TT with any significant upgrade path.  I suspect that part of its great performance lies in the fact that the arm and the table were designed for each other.  The table has a plastic plinth and i'm reasonably certain that the Origin Live "armboard" is little more than a circular piece of MDF or wood that fits in the hole where the origianl arm sat, it would still be attached to a plastic plinth. I also suspect that if this product had merit, Kevin of KAB would be offering it.  Lastly, the technics arm has "on the fly" adjustable VTA from thetop of the table. If you mount something like a Rega on the technics, then you have to provide for access to the tonearm mounting nut from underneath the table in order to adjust the VTA.

My recommendation was that the SL1200 was a good $250.00 entry level table that would hold its resale value at that point.  If you want to experiment with arms and the like, you probably should look elsewhere.

[Tonto Yoder]

...

$250?? Isn't a new 1200 more in the $450 US range??

[Batman]

...

$250?? Isn't a new 1200 more in the $450 US range??

They go used on Ebay all the time for $250.00 or less. They're built so well that no one need consider buying a new one so long as it hasn't seen rough DJ service.

[massappeal85]

I bought a new 1200 for roughly $375 on sale at guitar center. I realise now theres no reason why you shouldn't buy one used for cheaper... It's a very solid piece, maybe with the exception of the tonearm. I read its manufactured and sold for $15 in other countrys. I don't trust KAB's allegations too much. I can't spend too much money to tweak what may be a junk tonearm to begin with. Though for home use, I suspect the build should last you a lifetime.

As for sound quality, its my first turntable and I don't think I'm qualified to make any real judgements.

On the topic of Rega arms on 1200s: http://www.wavemusic.com/community/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2887

"i'm reasonably certain that the Origin Live "armboard" is little more than a circular piece of MDF or wood that fits in the hole where the origianl arm sat, it would still be attached to a plastic plinth. I also suspect that if this product had merit, Kevin of KAB would be offering it. Lastly, the technics arm has "on the fly" adjustable VTA from thetop of the table. If you mount something like a Rega on the technics, then you have to provide for access to the tonearm mounting nut from underneath the table in order to adjust the VTA."

Origin Live sells sliding and threaded VTA adjusters. The armboard is also very new from what I can tell. Though i've always been sorta put off with the prices of everything OL sells... $100 structural mods, $30 dollar vta adjusters...

[Psychicanimal]

Is the 1200/1300 a good buy?  Most definitely!  The problem here is that it is not that easy to compare TTs.  There's many variables going on: different cabling, cartrdige/tonearm compatibility, loading/capacitance settings, etc.  Therefore, comments like "I paid $850 for the Music Hall MMF-7 and it spanks the Technics" without any other regards are just not valid (I wonder how the modded Groovemaster was fitted to the arm of the Music Hall   ).

The subject of choosing a TT must heavily rely upon engineering content of the units in discussion.  The belt drives in the price range of the fully modded 1200 just do not have enough engineering content to make them outstanding units.  A belt drive that would do things right would need a substantially heavy platter (and/or flywheel), an FG servo drive mechanism (or other system, like Teres uses), a good suspension, quality bearings, superior power supply, etc.  Those belt drives will have speed fluctuations as power changes and as the belt stretches with time.  Is it audible?  Yes, it is!  

Just how good is the 1200?  Well, Batman posted that he used an unmodded 1200 with a Grado Black and lived comfortably with it, having a Teres with a Dynavector 10X4 next to it.  That's some very serious words.  BTW, the 1200's plinth is made of aluminum, not plastic.  My 1200 is going to get full mods and I plan to drive to NJ in the next two weeks and have Kevin install the outboard power supply.  Next I will have Robert of Ridge Street Audio rewire the tonearm and install a custom set of Midnight Silver Edition interconnects.  Robert said the rewire iis going to blow me away.  Speaking of the 1200's tonearm, it is a good tonearm.  It does not have a damped counterweight like the titanium EPA tonearms, but it is good.  It just needs a litlle control and the fluid damper does the job.  Here's a link to a review:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1033259530&read&3&4&

For those who would like to use another tonearm, Jennifer Crock (Jena Labs) told me she uses a modded 1200 with an SME tonearm.

Summing it up, the 1200 is the best buy out there in its price range.  It brings speed stability and correction developed for the SP-10 series.  That takes a lot of research money to do.  That's why I have one.

[Batman]

For those who would like to use another tonearm, Jennifer Crock (Jena Labs) told me she uses a modded 1200 with an SME tonearm.  en ...

How interesting. I just got an SL-1200 on Ebay that has a trashed tonearm and I have an SME tonearm coming in the mail. Stay tuned as Dr. Frankenstein builds a turntable. This ought to be fun.

[bluesky]

Again, thanks for all this information.

After receiving this information and doing some research on the internet I have decided on going with the Technics.

The main reason is the quality of manufacture and engineering in the unit.  It is is light years ahead of the Rega in all areas except the tonearm.  Its reliability is also beyond question.

As for the tonearm that can be changed if I really find it necessary, which I doubt now.

There are enough upgrades and tweaks available to make it into a fairly  high end table.  One area of interest is Psychicanimals wiring upgrades.  Obviously these aren't available in Australia but I can't see why I can't access them.  If you do find them worthwhile could you email me or put up a post about the sound, the cost and how I might be able to get them done myself.

So what I've ended up with is the following:

Technics SL1200 with the fluid dampener, outboard power supply, Groovemaster cartridge, possible tonearm rewiring and some good dampening to mount the whole lot on.  One suggestion is to use a sheet of Corian (synthetic marble) with a half inflated bicycle tube under that.

Any other ideas for upgrades that I haven't included?

This sytem should give this Aussie many years of listening pleasure and at one that is also reasonably priced.  It may not have the snob value of other turntables but I really couldn't give a rats about that!

Cheers, Ian
Brisbane, Australia