Trends Audio UD-10, wow! PC Convert

anubisgrau · « **Reply #40 on:** 28 Jul 2007, 02:29 pm »

one silly idea from my side, as i'm soon to start running a fully altmann-ized 12V car battery powered system, would it be too crazy to build a small step down transformer 12/5V so i can feed this thing with a clean battery power too. or any other ideas how this can be implemented?

mgalusha · « **Reply #41 on:** 29 Jul 2007, 12:38 pm »

Quote from: anubisgrau on 28 Jul 2007, 02:29 pm

one silly idea from my side, as i'm soon to start running a fully altmann-ized 12V car battery powered system, would it be too crazy to build a small step down transformer 12/5V so i can feed this thing with a clean battery power too. or any other ideas how this can be implemented?

A transformer can't be used to convert DC voltages. You can use a regulator to drop the 13.2V from the battery to the 5V needed by the UD-10. This can range from simple to extravagant. If you can DIY it's an easy project for a basic regulator. I'm using an ELPAC supply that Wayne modified a bit. I could have done this myself but it was offered as part of the DAC package in exchange for some work I'd done so I accepted.

The unit Wayne posted the picture of is mine. I cut a small piece of brass to cover the hole where the XLR connector was as I had no use for the AES/EBU output and installed the coax digital out in the brass plate and used the holes from the original BNC and RCA SP/DIF jacks for the analog outputs. The headphone jack is truly awful and one channel would cut out if everything was not just right. I lived with that for about 2 days before putting in the jacks. Trends provides connection points on the circuit board for the analog outputs so this is a very easy mod.

Mike

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #42 on:** 4 Aug 2007, 10:53 pm »

A new review that may be of interest concerning USB-to-S/PDIF....here......

pardales · « **Reply #43 on:** 5 Aug 2007, 01:50 am »

Nice article, thanks. The author pretty well summed up my feelings about using a computer/iTunes as a digital front end -- there is just no going back. Access is everything--iTunes (or equivalent) wins!

Telstar · « **Reply #44 on:** 18 Nov 2007, 11:52 pm »

Quote from: pardales on 5 Aug 2007, 01:50 am

using a computer/iTunes as a digital front end -- there is just no going back.

ditto

santacore · « **Reply #45 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 12:33 am »

I was thinking about picking up one of these. I would love to hear more opinions from AC'ers who have been using it a while.

lcrim · « **Reply #46 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 04:22 am »

I've been into PC audio for a few years now and wouldn't consider returning to a CD player. Originally I had a USB to SPDIF device (Creative Audigy NX) in the living room system, feeding a Scott Nixon TubeDac+. I used an older laptop with a USB attached storage drive around the corner in the kitchen. I also used this server to feed a SB3 in the bedroom feeding a SN ChibiDac.
After several years of experience, I moved the laptop/server w/ storage drives to the laundry room and it serves an SB3 in the living room system and the SB3 in the bedroom both wirelessly w/ no connectivity issues.
The SB is improved enormously by the addition of a quality linear power supply. Both my SB3's are still stock w/ some bucks spent on decent power supplies. Decent outboard DAC's and good digital cables complete the setups.
All the PC and drive noise has been isolated from the sound systems.
When you use a USB to SPDIF device you need a player such as Foobar or Winamp. I used Asio4All to avoid the Kmixer in WINXP and Foobar as the player. You must have a fairly fast PC w/ lots of resources to play back through USB out to SPDIF. You will get pops, clicks and dropouts even w/ a dedicated and optimized PC. I am a network engineer by profession, and worked fairly hard to eliminate the noise but Windoze has built in housekeeping tasks that can't be eliminated. I avoided Vista, that might make things easier but I truly doubt it.
SqueezeCenter or Slim Server on the other hand, doesn't require squat for resources. After much experience, I honestly feel that wireless ethernet is a much better medium for streaming music. This has been my experience at any rate.

santacore · « **Reply #47 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 05:35 am »

lcrim,

I'll would be using this with a mac laptop. Hopefully that will eliminate most, if not all of the issues you mentioned. Thanks for the input.

denjo · « **Reply #48 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 08:35 am »

Larry said:

Quote

After much experience, I honestly feel that wireless ethernet is a much better medium for streaming music. This has been my experience at any rate.

Hi Larry
I am using an ehternet to feed my SB3! What is a wireless ethernet? Excuse my ignorance, but is either wired (ethernet) or wireless, right?

Best Regards
Dennis

lcrim · « **Reply #49 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 11:27 am »

Denjo:
WiFi or wireless (802.11a,b,g) is still ethernet. It still uses the same error checking, etc. to ensure that all the data packets sent are received. I realize that there are those who feel that wired provides better sound quality in that the wireless card can then be turned off and its a source of extraneous noise but I've never been able to hear it with my own ears.
Not to beat a dead horse but even a virus scan event will require a call on the processor and that causes a pop or click, so you end up disabling the virus scan while listening, somtimes you even remember to turn it back on.
Let me add something. I have known Wayne for some time and admire his work and his standards as a human being. If I ever had mods done and I may, I would ask him to do them. Having said that, I still think that the addition of a good linear power supply is a very cost effective way of improving the sound quality from the SB. I got into PC audio as an early adopter and felt it was an extraordinarily cost effective way of providing high quality digital playback. The target keeps moving however and I made up my mind early not to get too heavily invested in any one method because an innovation may come along next week that vastly changes the landscape. For right now, and I listen to my turntables and LP's mostly, the SB seems like the best method to me and thats after several years of experimentation. The utility of having all your CD music in one volume is a huge value add as well.

Gaara · « **Reply #50 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 11:53 am »

Quote from: lcrim on 19 Nov 2007, 04:22 am

You must have a fairly fast PC w/ lots of resources to play back through USB out to SPDIF. You will get pops, clicks and dropouts even w/ a dedicated and optimized PC.

Larry,

I guess this is one of those YMMV situations because I had the exact opposite situation. With Slimserver running it uses up around 3x the memory as foobar running through my Trends USB->SPDIF. As for noise I never heard a single click, pop, or other type of noise in the 6 months or so I used the Trends. All I did was turn off all the sounds in the Control Panel. The computer was a bit noisy until I replaced all the fans and added a muffler to the PSU.

Telstar · « **Reply #51 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 03:40 pm »

Quote from: lcrim on 19 Nov 2007, 04:22 am

When you use a USB to SPDIF device you need a player such as Foobar or Winamp. I used Asio4All to avoid the Kmixer in WINXP and Foobar as the player. You must have a fairly fast PC w/ lots of resources to play back through USB out to SPDIF. You will get pops, clicks and dropouts even w/ a dedicated and optimized PC. I am a network engineer by profession, and worked fairly hard to eliminate the noise but Windoze has built in housekeeping tasks that can't be eliminated. I avoided Vista, that might make things easier but I truly doubt it.

(refer to the bolded part) This worries me.
I'm building a HTPC because I have a single-room setup and I will be using it as videoteque. I'm not a network tech but I know PCs. With internal soundcards I have never had audio glitches that I could not be able to resolve. But usb audio is a realm i dont know. I'm keeping my CDP just in case

I do think Vista has improved a lot on this field, expecially when using a DAC with a good usb to spdif component, or ditch completely usb (which I think could be the hidden cause) and go firewire.
Also, i'm trying XXhighend player in place of foobar+asio and it gets exclusive mode, which should also help avoiding sound glitches. I also used MediaPortal with its asio BASS player, with results similar if not identical to foobar.

Quote

Take my advice, I'm not using it.

LOL!

Telstar · « **Reply #52 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 03:42 pm »

Quote from: Gaara on 19 Nov 2007, 11:53 am

I guess this is one of those YMMV situations because I had the exact opposite situation. With Slimserver running it uses up around 3x the memory as foobar running through my Trends USB->SPDIF. As for noise I never heard a single click, pop, or other type of noise in the 6 months or so I used the Trends. All I did was turn off all the sounds in the Control Panel. The computer was a bit noisy until I replaced all the fans and added a muffler to the PSU.

I think Larry was referring to sound glitches due to software and resource issues.

Silencing the computer is another important task, cause vibrations can cause noises in the sound reproduction, but that is mostly true for internal soundcards, not an external dac like the TA.

lcrim · « **Reply #53 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 04:40 pm »

I don't think I'm alone in my observations. In a review last year http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/empirical/offramp.html
if you read down you will see that the reviewer had a similar experience with regard to pops and clicks. I also stand by my comments regarding resource usage in Windoze and that Slimserver has a considerably lower footprint than Foobar. I described my actual experience and cited a similar experience by a reviewer. My observation was that streaming the music over ethernet worked a lot better for me than USB to SPDIF. You can now avoid the SPDIF conversion completely and arrive at the DAC chip in I2S but that requires a different setup entailing increased costs. The target keeps moving, I said earlier. For now I am fairly satisfied but the bulk of my listening is via analog anyway. I've been down the path you are on and simply wanted to share my experience.

Telstar · « **Reply #54 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 04:52 pm »

Quote from: lcrim on 19 Nov 2007, 04:40 pm

I don't think I'm alone in my observations. In a review last year http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/empirical/offramp.html
if you read down you will see that the reviewer had a similar experience with regard to pops and clicks. I also stand by my comments regarding resource usage in Windoze and that Slimserver has a considerably lower footprint than Foobar. I described my actual experience and cited a similar experience by a reviewer. My observation was that streaming the music over ethernet worked a lot better for me than USB to SPDIF. You can now avoid the SPDIF conversion completely and arrive at the DAC chip in I2S but that requires a different setup entailing increased costs. The target keeps moving, I said earlier. For now I am fairly satisfied but the bulk of my listening is via analog anyway. I've been down the path you are on and simply wanted to share my experience.

I did read that review and it worried me alot. And I also read of some people having similar issues with the PS audio DAC, which may have a faulty usb input component.
I hope Vista and XX will prevent me from this nightmare, otherwise I have to go for a different route, which can otherwise be a firewire soundcard with spdif output (most DACs accept it).

GHM · « **Reply #55 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 04:54 pm »

I've also had the Trends unit. It worked flawless for me. Especially after mating it with the USB-AUDIO driver. I never had problems with clicks and ticks in my setup. No noise either. I use a unmodified Dell XPS PC.

Vista is better for music IMO. XP is good if you can use the USB-AUDIO driver.

Gaara · « **Reply #56 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 05:37 pm »

One snippet from the review that caught my eye

"Steve Nugent explained the reason for these pops to me. It has to do with the software (i.e. M-Audio Transit) driving the audio through the I/O (input/output) port. With large latency drivers (i.e. large buffering or storage capacity), there can be delays in delivering the information from the hard disc to the memory and out the I/O port. These delays cause the temporary dropouts. Steve is trying to get driver software with less latency."

I personally have never had pops or clicks and had the Trends for ~ 6months and the USB Monica for around 3 months now. I have always used ASIO4ALL. It seems that certain software you get clicks with, and certain ones you don't. If I recall correctly Emprical Audio is now bundling a ASIO with their hardware.

As for system resources, not sure why this would vary. I use Foobar w/ ASIO4ALL and SRC and it takes up around 25mb(?) of memory, while Slimserver uses around 80mb.

acresm22 · « **Reply #57 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 07:38 pm »

Hey converts, a question or two from a pc-audio novice:

I recently bought one of those $348 "Black Friday" Acer laptops from Walmart, and it's been sitting in the unopened box as I debate its future...Christmas gift to parents, return for refund, spare...or music server for audio system!

Just saw this thread and had an idea. Acer to Trends UD-10 via relatively long usb cable...Trends to passive preamp via rca jacks/splitter out of headphone jack and one-meter ICs...passive to ASL 300B amp...amp to Klipsch LaScalas.

Is that an equipment chain that will work well? Is it possible to bypass the passive pre and control volume with the Acer from my listening position?

acresm22 · « **Reply #58 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 08:15 pm »

Also, any thoughts on using this instead of the Trends...same setup as described in the previous post, but using the Fubar's volume conrol?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=300173113986&Category=3280&_trksid=p3907.m29

Many thanks!

Gaara · « **Reply #59 on:** 19 Nov 2007, 10:11 pm »

IMO the UD-10 isn't much to write home about as a stand alone DAC. It is good, but not great. If it was me I would much rather have something nicer and use the Trends as a USB->SPDIF, or go with a fullout USB DAC like DIY Pardise's USB Monica, or the MHDT dacs. I personally use a USB Monica and passive pre in my current pc rig.