OB2X's almost ready, finished picture!

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #20 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 05:12 am »

Alright, I managed to get the tweeter network out of the box ... it's all wired right, no bad connections, I checked all solder joints. Just hooked it back up and it's still wrong. The mid network is definately right too.

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #21 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 05:09 pm »

Yet again, I'm going through the crossovers today ... I'm telling you guys, there are NO mistakes in my assembly. So I'm going to take it all apart and test the components. However, before I assembled it I tested most components, and they all tested fine.

Since both of my finished speakers are measuring the same, I honestly think the drivers used for the simulation and testing done by Danny don't match these kit units.

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #22 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 05:52 pm »

Is there a way you can measure just the drivers alone on the baffles? Maybe then Danny and or Al can see if its actually the drivers.

Just trying to help, I realize you are a little frustrated!

Anand.

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #23 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 06:26 pm »

Aight ... tweeter xover components are testing like. Also to note, both caps have the .1uF bypass caps soldered on during testing.

Marked --- Tested
.22mH --- .221
.11mH --- .095
4 ohm --- 3.96
8 ohm --- 7.98
10 ohm --- 9.91
5.6 uF --- 5.85
20 uF --- 20.72

The only notable is the .11mH testing low, still nowhere near enough to account for the problem however. I don't like those tiny inductors one bit by the way, the leads break way to easily.

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #24 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 06:42 pm »

Individual drivers tested, 30uF inline with tweeter. Both measured nearfield at same distance and level, no gating was used, 1/6 octave smoothing.

IronForge · « **Reply #25 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 06:42 pm »

Would it have anything to do with the baffle? If you look at the test cabinet, which is what I am using, the top end by the tweeter is cut at an angle and the edges are rounded over.

I'm not sure if this would make any difference, but something to think about.

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #26 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 06:53 pm »

No, diffraction effect from a baffle this narrow are going to be pretty high in frequency ... they're always small anyway, not the 5db or more we're talking about here.

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #27 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 07:10 pm »

And here's the tweeter response with just an inline 30uF, and measured at the same level/distance with the crossover network clipped together.

RAW · « **Reply #28 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 08:24 pm »

OK guys
I tested the kit direct from Danny.These are the kits we ship direct from GR .This kit is going to Secrets of HT DIY for review.So this is not a kit I put together.
Dropped the kit on the floor clipped it together and at 1 meter in room.That was the measurement.

I have never made any measurements of the OB2X,OB3X less the one I just posted on the OB2X.The posted measurements are direct from Danny of GR, till we could get stock and test them.
Notice my posted OB2X measurements is only 1/3 smoothed.You see all the wiggle in the tweeter upper end compaired to the posted measurements from Danny were the tweeter does not show this.Ours used less smoothing.
Danny did all the measurements on the OB2X,OB3X plus the HT3.You can tell this by his white Clio screen captures to our measurements with Praxis screen.

Some people have started to contact a few customers about concern of my measurements directed to our products ,we stand by our measurements 100%.

RAW · « **Reply #29 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 08:27 pm »

Quote from: IronForge on 13 Jul 2007, 06:42 pm

Would it have anything to do with the baffle? If you look at the test cabinet, which is what I am using, the top end by the tweeter is cut at an angle and the edges are rounded over.

I'm not sure if this would make any difference, but something to think about.

No the top shape only has a vertical measurement notice.I will get to this in the next week with a few measurements showing the difference between the shaped top cabinet and not shaped.
As well as the differences of using foam,BH5 ect on the rear of the cabinet just below the mid range.
Both are a very suttee difference.

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #30 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 08:47 pm »

Quote from: RAW on 13 Jul 2007, 08:24 pm

Some people have started to contact a few customers about concern of my measurements directed to our products ,we stand by our measurements 100%.

Somebody wrote me as well asking how to test their HT8's to see if they're 'right'.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry one bit about any of the other time-after-time proven kits from Raw or GR. If you build them right, they're going to sound like they should and probably measure within .25db across the board ... I know my A/V3's did.

This kit however is brand spanking new though, and the M-130x's are brand new too. I have 4 M-130x's and 8 M-165x's in the house right now, and they're all very very consistent with each other, so I doubt they're the problem. But something here isn't right. From what I'm seeing, it's not a minor thing either ... it's more than something like the DCR of the included inductors not being what Danny specified (just using that as an example).

I hope nobody is dissuaded from buying from Raw or GR, I know this won't cause me to hesitate personally ... although it is quite frustrating

And if there is something similarly off with other OB2X kits, I'm glad to hopefully help figure out what it is.

Daygloworange · « **Reply #31 on:** 13 Jul 2007, 11:48 pm »

Quote from: TurboFC3S on 13 Jul 2007, 08:47 pm

Quote from: RAW on 13 Jul 2007, 08:24 pm
Some people have started to contact a few customers about concern of my measurements directed to our products ,we stand by our measurements 100%.

Somebody wrote me as well asking how to test their HT8's to see if they're 'right'.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry one bit about any of the other time-after-time proven kits from Raw or GR. If you build them right, they're going to sound like they should and probably measure within .25db across the board ... I know my A/V3's did.

I'm just catching up on this thread, and am, to put it bluntly, amused by what appears to be some kind of panic due to Turbo's measurements not seeming honky dory.

The timing of this thread is really unfortunate, as Danny has been away since early this week, and won't be back till next week. Al didn't receive his shipment of M-130X drivers till apparently yesterday.

I also find it ironic that the enthusiasm for this new speaker has turned to people getting all freaked out. We could now have a scenario where Al has to do a bunch of needless fielding of emails and phone calls. The power of the internet is a double edged sword. The same internet that had people jump all over this new design offering, is now having people needlessly sweat over current, and previous models????

C'mon people....

Quote

Since both of my finished speakers are measuring the same, I honestly think the drivers used for the simulation and testing done by Danny don't match these kit units

Quote

But something here isn't right. From what I'm seeing, it's not a minor thing either ...

TurboFC3S, with all due respect, please don't speculate, it's not doing anything helpful. To people who have less knowledge than you, comments like these look really bad. Both Danny and Al are guys who will go out of their way to help customers get the results their kits are engineered for, they deserve a little more respect than having you think out loud in this manner. I don't think that's asking too much.

I haven't spoken to either Al or Danny, but I'm sure they'll get to the bottom of this ASAP. There's a reasonable explanation as to what is going on here.

Just hang tight till Danny gets back.

Cheers

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #32 on:** 14 Jul 2007, 03:14 am »

There are two possibilites here

- I screwed something up in assembly
- Danny messed up in passing crossover notes to Al

I've spoken with both guys at length, trust me there's no issue here between us. If I screwed up I'll actually be happy to admit it, but if Danny screwed up then he'll be glad I found it early on in the products life cycle. Whatever it is we're going to find out and share the results with everyone.

I'm glad you find amusement in my tribulations though

All I can do is speculate right now because Danny is too busy sniffing diesel fumes at 5280 elevation!

I have trouble 'hangin tight' if you haven't noticed, I like to get projects done quick

Right now I'm literally fighting the urge to start from scratch and design a new xover network. It's almost irresistible!

We're just building a speaker here, not launching the Space Shuttle. Nobody incinerated over the Atlantic, so no harm done. I love doing this stuff, so a little frustration is no big deal. The biggest inconvenience to me is simply having to wait to hear how they sound. We're all friend here, so chill out Johnny-come-lately

Daygloworange · « **Reply #33 on:** 14 Jul 2007, 05:01 am »

Quote

We're all friend here, so chill out Johnny-come-lately

???

Danny Richie · « **Reply #34 on:** 16 Jul 2007, 02:20 pm »

Hi Guys,

It was a long weekend and I just pulled in at 3:00 am this morning. I am pooped and have a mountain of work in front of me and orders to get shipped. Hang in there and I will remeasure these to see if I made an error in sending the network plans to Al. I have one test box here so dropping the drivers back in and taking some measurements won't be a problem. Just give me a few days to get to it.

IronForge · « **Reply #35 on:** 16 Jul 2007, 03:19 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 16 Jul 2007, 02:20 pm

Hi Guys,

It was a long weekend and I just pulled in at 3:00 am this morning. I am pooped and have a mountain of work in front of me and orders to get shipped. Hang in there and I will remeasure these to see if I made an error in sending the network plans to Al. I have one test box here so dropping the drivers back in and taking some measurements won't be a problem. Just give me a few days to get to it.

I have listened to two of my OB2X speakers for a few more hours this weekend. They are already sounding smoother. Let us know what you find Danny.

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #36 on:** 16 Jul 2007, 03:49 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 16 Jul 2007, 02:20 pm

Hi Guys,

It was a long weekend and I just pulled in at 3:00 am this morning. I am pooped and have a mountain of work in front of me and orders to get shipped. Hang in there and I will remeasure these to see if I made an error in sending the network plans to Al. I have one test box here so dropping the drivers back in and taking some measurements won't be a problem. Just give me a few days to get to it.

A few days! I'll have redesigned it as a 40 driver omnidirectional open-baffle line-array by then

Just kidding, let me know what you find. How were the drags?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #37 on:** 17 Jul 2007, 02:32 am »

Okay guys, I hooked all of this back up and took new measurements. It looks like I made a error in writing down the values that I used on the tweeter circuit. The .22mH in the tweeter circuit was actually a .33mH. I also made one resistor value change and the response now looks just like it did in the beginning and really smooth all the way across the board.

TurboFC3S has already tried the value changes and now his is smooth too.

Sorry guys. I typically finalize the design after listening for a while and typically that leads me well into the evening. After giving it my thumbs up I either mis-read the values in the near dark room or thought that I knew what they were in that part of the circuit and was mistaken.

Since I never built out a finished pair and just e-mailed the values to Al, I never caught the error.

For the handful of you that already have a pair in various stages of completion, rest assured that Al or I will get you a couple of new inductors and resistors out shortly and I will take care of the cost.

I am also wiped out from the weekend at Mile High Nationals. It is early to bed tonight for me.

IronForge · « **Reply #38 on:** 17 Jul 2007, 02:37 am »

Danny,

Is it an inductor change-out or also resistors?

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #39 on:** 17 Jul 2007, 02:50 am »

Quote from: IronForge on 17 Jul 2007, 02:37 am

Danny,

Is it an inductor change-out or also resistors?

Inductor and resistor on the tweeter network only - .22mH becomes a .33mH, and 10ohm becomes 7 ohm. Here are the results from my value testing, but I didn't have a 7ohm (go figure, I have every other value imaginable), and my .33mH is a 14ga Foil.

I also had here a .11mH 14ga Foil and .15mH 14ga Foil. Here's how they would all look, I think I'm going with the yellow curve values

I like how the foil smoothes it out a bit (plus I'm a sucker for foils on tweeters), but still is a touch down through the 2-3khz region which will make the power response a bit smoother.

Yellow = .11mH 14ga Foil Inductor and 7.5 ohm resistor
Blue = .15mH 14ga Foil Inductor and 10 ohm resistor
Pink = .15mH 14ga Foil Inductor and 7.5 ohm resistor
Green = Kit included .11mH small gauge Solen Inductor and 7.5 ohm resistor

Note - I think the 500hz suckout is a floor bounce based on the midrange height, so ignore that artifact