Class D fun

Gaara · « **Reply #20 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 03:07 pm »

Josh,

Thanks for the clarification. I read a few reviews labeling t amps as chip amps and just took on there incorrect verbiage.

Jared

Vinnie R. · « **Reply #21 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 03:23 pm »

Quote from: A6M-ZERO

First is the famous and award-winning Red Wine Audio Signature 30 - a lead-acid battery powered amplifier using the low powered ti-path module. Often described by pro's and regular consumers alike as retaining strengths of tube and solid state - this amp is flat out a gas to listen to!

Hi Sean,

Thanks for this great post... and I'm looking forward to your upcoming Signature 30 review in Affordable Audio!

Quote from: macrojack

Can I get a witness? Red Wine Audio Sig 30 does everything but glow and distort. If you don't need that stuff, you don't need glass. I've been in Class D, with brief interruptions for about 5 years now. I started with Rowland 201 monos and ended up with the Sig 30. In between, I tasted the Pass Aleph 30 and an Onix SP-3 and an Antique Sound Labs Orchid. All were really nice but RWA won out in the end. The combination of performance, convenience and price are unbeatable.

Hi macrojack,

Thanks for testifying!

Glad you are loving your Siggie as well.

Quote from: A6M-ZERO

]While there will be no A/B comparison done here - I can say with complete confidence that class D is here to challenge traditional notions. All of this in a friendy economic package? Talk about fun !!!! Gotta love this hobby!

I agree with Sean. No matter if the design is based on Class T (Tripath), ICE, or others, a well-implemented Class D amp can really give some of the best of what tubes and SS gear are loved for, AND can beautifully reproduce the music!

Thanks again,

Vinnie

Toka · « **Reply #22 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 05:00 pm »

I'm glad gear like the RWA products is getting such praise of late...really, stuff like that is the future of home audio, not the umpteenth iteration of a valve-based power amp. Smaller, cooler, quieter...still sounding great. Whats not to like?

macrojack · « **Reply #23 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 05:41 pm »

Right on, Toka. I agree with everything you said except that the umpteenth was introduced circa 1992. We're hearing about the gazillionth iteration at this point.

zybar · « **Reply #24 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 05:48 pm »

Quote from: macrojack on 8 Jul 2007, 12:39 am

Zybar,

I'd say RWA has better, faster, cleaner, more impactive bass. There is more body, or fullness of tone. The Rowland is no slouch, as you know, but it just didn't convey the "you are there" like my Siggie does. Many say it is like a good SET. This I can't say with conviction having spent time with no other SET than my Orchid. I felt it was underpowered for my purposes on the Druids that I had at the time. But it was light and sweet and musical so I guess they have that in common.

You should give it a try, George. All it will cost you is round trip postage and that can't be much considering you only live a couple of hours from Vinnie. Heck, just take a day and go down and see him.

Thanks Macrojack.

The 201's were indeed a little thin and cool sounding at times.

I do hope to visit Vinnie sometime later this summer. If that goes well, maybe I will try a pair in my system.

George

JoshK · « **Reply #25 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 05:52 pm »

Generalities are hard to make, but from what I've heard of ones I've heard or owned, class-d amps are missing that je ne se quoi of a really good tube amp, but they do so many things right they are hard to fault and easy to live with. It comes down to personal preference.

Toka · « **Reply #26 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 06:31 pm »

Agreed on the personal preferences part. Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting rid of my 'traditional' stuff anytime soon, but when/if I want to go in a completely different direction (or for a 2nd system), I'll be looking at something like RWA first.

ctviggen · « **Reply #27 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 08:00 pm »

Have any of you paired a good tube preamp with a "digital" amp (class D or other)? I was thinking this might give some of the benefitis of the tube sound but have lower heat output and still have the ability to drive some heavy loads.

JLM · « **Reply #28 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 10:10 pm »

I've gone from one of the really good sounding 8 wpc digitals to 40 watt chip monoblocks and am loving it. Sure the extra juice is useful and the channel separation afforded by the monoblocks helps, but the price was about the same too. Keep in mind that digitals need careful feeding to sound their best.

zacster · « **Reply #29 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 10:22 pm »

Quote from: ctviggen on 8 Jul 2007, 08:00 pm

Have any of you paired a good tube preamp with a "digital" amp (class D or other)? I was thinking this might give some of the benefitis of the tube sound but have lower heat output and still have the ability to drive some heavy loads.

I've used my Charlize with my Aikido and it sounded great. The Aikido is a very low noise tube pre and the Charlize is my latest build. Both can be driven off batteries, the Aikido at 24vdc and the Charlize at 12vdc, but I haven't tried it yet. My guess is that would be a killer system that way. Maybe I should get a pair of 12v SLA batteries and give it a try. So many projects, so little time...

Hogg · « **Reply #30 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 12:42 am »

I have to agree with Josh on this one. Class D amps are missing the 3-d sound stage of great tube and in some cases solidstate amps. Most sound rather flat to me. Of the ones I've heard, the Red Wine was the best. I'm wondering if the use of a battery is the secret; perhaps a better power supply design is in order.

There's no question the R&D with firms who have the big bucks will go to class D and thus it will eventually surpass or at least equal tubes and solidstate.

Jim

sabes · « **Reply #31 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 01:21 am »

Quote from: ctviggen on 8 Jul 2007, 08:00 pm

Have any of you paired a good tube preamp with a "digital" amp (class D or other)? I was thinking this might give some of the benefitis of the tube sound but have lower heat output and still have the ability to drive some heavy loads.

check out this thread - jrebman and others love the ee minimax with the sig's

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=38791.0

Zero · « **Reply #32 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 02:01 am »

I can tell you guys this much - that 3-d all encumbering sound-stage can be attained with the above pieces..

I just wish I could say more.

Gordy · « **Reply #33 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 02:06 am »

Quote from: Hogg on 9 Jul 2007, 12:42 am

I'm wondering if the use of a battery is the secret; perhaps a better power supply design is in order

Jim

My experience so far is that switching amps are very sensitive to the PS, more so than other circuits. I really liked what batteries and caps brought to the UcD amps, though I never did find a top end I loved. Jim, if you recall, you weren't overly impressed with my version at Phil's.

it's been two years now!

Vinnie's RWA amps have been my favorite to date, especially the 70's which I listened to extensively (well, for a day) at the Jersy VTV show last year. Even under show conditions they sounded wonderful with Louis's then latest hemp speakers!

ctv,

As for tube preamps, the Modwright was a fantastic match if you're looking for a linear sound with subtle tube tone. Natureboy's Minimax was a real treat as well, with it's added benefit of flavor tuning via tube rolling.

JoshK · « **Reply #34 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 02:02 pm »

Quote from: A6M-ZERO on 9 Jul 2007, 02:01 am

I can tell you guys this much - that 3-d all encumbering sound-stage can be attained with the above pieces..

I just wish I could say more.

I don't doubt it. I've had that with 'digital' amps. I didn't mean to say otherwise. I guess what I was trying to say is there is a feeling that things can be just a little too clean sometimes...not sterile really...I lack the descriptors to describe what I mean.

Unlike Jim, I haven't really found that something something in an all SS system or even an all SS amp. Tubes have their own ball of wax to deal with and I don't really care for the heat and power consumption. I think a tube preamp and digital amp could be the best practical solution for many looking for the sound I like.

andrewbee · « **Reply #35 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 03:21 pm »

Quote

Class D amps are missing the 3-d sound stage of great tube and in some cases solidstate amps.

I cannot say this has been my experience, quite the contrary. I remember when first playing my Charlize that the first things I noticed was the "extra" wide soundstage, even exaggerated, and the impressive upper bass, almost as if there had been a boost around the 100Hz region. Speakers are Jerico horns or Visaton B200's in ob's.

I use an FVP5 clone (Allen Wright's brilliant design) I built including the superreg or an Aikido 12SN7 (recently completed) on the front end and am using two AMP 5 modules,each wired as mono's for power or the Charlize.

I have a Truepath (41hz.com) on order.
If you want to try some wickedly good Tripath amps go to 41hz.com. They are kits so remember your soldering iron.

miklorsmith · « **Reply #36 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 03:55 pm »

Quote from: JoshK on 9 Jul 2007, 02:02 pm

I think a tube preamp and digital amp could be the best practical solution for many looking for the sound I like.

I've been running a Lamm LL2 Deluxe into my Sig. 70s for about 3 months and this is a really tremendous combination. Going direct to the Sig's is liquid, but without the tube love. Adding the Lamm rounded everything out perfectly. I'm really loving it.

CSI · « **Reply #37 on:** 9 Jul 2007, 04:16 pm »

The tube pre/class D power amp combo is a great solution. I'm running a PrimaLuna Preamp with my CIA D-200's. Compared to a passive pre, the tube pre widens and deepens the soundstage and adds a bit of "spin" to the highs as well. It may be less accurate (more colored) but it provides some tube magic without the drawbacks of a big old tube amp.

As for the hybrid car/class D analogy, I suppose you could stretch it to say that using a high powered class D amp (like the D-200's) is like being able to drive your hybrid car at 100 mph (like a certain prominent politician's son).

JoshK · « **Reply #38 on:** 10 Jul 2007, 03:15 am »

Another thing, like someone else mentioned...I think power is a key element with 'digital' amps. They can sound just different depending on the power being delivered to them. This doesn't have to be uber expensive ultra power conditioning, just thoughtful and effective filtering. I think they tend to be more sensitive to power infarctions.

Bob Wilcox · « **Reply #39 on:** 10 Jul 2007, 11:29 am »

I believe I had this same the H2O Signature 150 in-house for a brief period. Henry Ho stated that the lower power modules it uses are the best sounding in the Icepower series.

I am passively bi amping RM-40s using an eAR Two on the bass and the standard stereo H2O Signature on the treble. I have found class D very sensitive to powerline quality and isolation. For example, the Power Plant Premier does a much better job of cleaning up my system sound than the Exactpower EP-15A. The major significant design difference, IMO, is not the sinewave correction approach but rather the outlet isolation filters on the Premier preventing cross-contamination traveling through the powercords. Digital components can backfeed noise into the power lines. Amps using feedback can pick up RFI from unshielded speaker cables and the RFI can become input to the amp because of the feedback circuit. Adding zoebel networks at the speaker end and PowerWraps to powercords removed some false treble and provides a greater consistency across listening sessions. As far as vibration isolation, I find class D amps just as sensitive as front end components and the better the isolation, the better the overall sound - reduction of smear, tighter bass, better imaging. In my experience, the sensitivity to vibration is higher than that of solid state or tube amps.

Bob