Class D fun

Zero · « **on:** 7 Jul 2007, 09:34 pm »

I have a confession to make; I've always favored the sound of a well done valve-based amp or class-A transistor. To there ears, these topologies nearly always deliver a sound that is wonderfully organic and harmonically correct. With that said, class D has quickly evolved into something capable of delivering performance similar to the above, for a lot less green out of your wallet. You could say, I've been a supporter of class D way back when it first started hitting the virtual air-waves. Now, I am having a bit of fun with two extremely capable amplifiers that takes class D near its current limits.

First is the famous and award-winning Red Wine Audio Signature 30 - a lead-acid battery powered amplifier using the low powered ti-path module. Often described by pro's and regular consumers alike as retaining strengths of tube and solid state - this amp is flat out a gas to listen to!

The other amplifier takes on a different tact. The H2O Signature 150 (this is one of the few in existence) uses the latest ICE modules. This thing is an absolute powerhouse. It is built like a tank, boasts a total of four transformers ( outputting 100wpc into 8 ohms), retains an amazing 200,000uf of capacitance _per channel_, and can easily handle impedance dips to 1 ohm. Like the Sig 30 - listening is real fun!

While there will be no A/B comparison done here - I can say with complete confidence that class D is here to challenge traditional notions. All of this in a friendy economic package? Talk about fun !!!! Gotta love this hobby!

Zero · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Jul 2007, 09:34 pm »

A quick 'guts' snapshot;

andrewbee · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Jul 2007, 10:14 pm »

I am in agreement. I have gone with Tripath for all my power amplifiers and only leave tubes for linestage duties. The only tube amp I have that sounds in the Tripath league is a Transcendent SE OTL and its only 1.5WPC. I was going to go with a high power OTL but for what I get with the Tripath amps I did'nt bother.
I would still like to compare them though.

macrojack · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Jul 2007, 10:53 pm »

Can I get a witness? Red Wine Audio Sig 30 does everything but glow and distort. If you don't need that stuff, you don't need glass. I've been in Class D, with brief interruptions for about 5 years now. I started with Rowland 201 monos and ended up with the Sig 30. In between, I tasted the Pass Aleph 30 and an Onix SP-3 and an Antique Sound Labs Orchid. All were really nice but RWA won out in the end. The combination of performance, convenience and price are unbeatable. And there's no heat, which is very important in Western Colorado just now.

hmen · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Jul 2007, 11:21 pm »

I love my Atma-Sphere M60's but it's not really fun to keep my basement air conditioner on whenever I use it from May to November. And even though it's easy to bias, going near it in the summer is no fun. You guys may be on to something.

Occam · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Jul 2007, 11:49 pm »

Quote from: A6M-ZERO on 7 Jul 2007, 09:34 pm

....The other amplifier takes on a different tact. The H2O Signature 150 (this is one of the few in existence) uses the latest ICE modules. This thing is an absolute powerhouse. It is built like a tank, boasts a total of four transformers ( outputting 100wpc into 8 ohms), retains an amazing 200,000uf of capacitance _per channel_, and can easily handle impedance dips to 1 ohm. ...

WOW! What speakers were you driving with the H2Os that dip down to 1ohm? Apogee Scintillas?

macrojack · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Jul 2007, 11:51 pm »

For anyone who cares about such things, Red Wine is certainly an Energy Star product.

zybar · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Jul 2007, 11:58 pm »

Quote from: macrojack on 7 Jul 2007, 10:53 pm

Can I get a witness? Red Wine Audio Sig 30 does everything but glow and distort. If you don't need that stuff, you don't need glass. I've been in Class D, with brief interruptions for about 5 years now. I started with Rowland 201 monos and ended up with the Sig 30. In between, I tasted the Pass Aleph 30 and an Onix SP-3 and an Antique Sound Labs Orchid. All were really nice but RWA won out in the end. The combination of performance, convenience and price are unbeatable. And there's no heat, which is very important in Western Colorado just now.

Macrojack,

I used to own the 201's...in what way does the RWA sound different?

I haven't yet heard a SS or Class D amp that makes me think I am listening to a good tube amp...but I haven't had a chance to hear Vinnie's Sig 30 or 70's.

George

zybar · « **Reply #8 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 12:01 am »

Quote from: hmen on 7 Jul 2007, 11:21 pm

I love my Atma-Sphere M60's but it's not really fun to keep my basement air conditioner on whenever I use it from May to November. And even though it's easy to bias, going near it in the summer is no fun. You guys may be on to something.

You said it!!

The only amps that heated the room more than my M-60's were a pair of Kora Cosmos Reference mono blocks that were rated for 100 watts of Class A triode power via 14 tubes per amp (8 6AS7G, 4 EL84, and 2 6922).

George

zacster · « **Reply #9 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 12:25 am »

I was just saying to my daughters that I'm going to take the Charlize (tripath) amp that I built for them and use it while they're away at camp, to replace my 6B4G room heater for the summer. That thing puts out so much heat.

I had used the Charlize for a week while I waited for a replacement pair of tubes and when the tubes came I didn't even put them in for a few days. I didn't miss my tube amp. How does that little chip do that?

Zero · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 12:27 am »

Quote

WOW! What speakers were you driving with the H2Os that dip down to 1ohm? Apogee Scintillas?

The only Apogee's I've ran in this room were a pair of Centaurus Minors. However, Henry Ho, the man behind H2O runs a pair of Scintillas. (along with Divas)

Quote

I haven't yet heard a SS or Class D amp that makes me think I am listening to a good tube amp...but I haven't had a chance to hear Vinnie's Sig 30 or 70's.

I am unable to dive as deeply in this subject matter as I'd like - there is a lot of ground I'd like to cover and person experiences I'd enjoy sharing. Suffice to say; there are very distinct and fundamental differences between a good class D amp, and a good valve amplifier. While class D can pull off many of the same tricks as tubes, and even throw in a few surprises into the show - they are ultimately very different beasts. Love it? Hate it? Ultimately the path leads to the all too familiar open ended realm of synergy and personal preference.

macrojack · « **Reply #11 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 12:39 am »

Zybar,

I'd say RWA has better, faster, cleaner, more impactive bass. There is more body, or fullness of tone. The Rowland is no slouch, as you know, but it just didn't convey the "you are there" like my Siggie does. Many say it is like a good SET. This I can't say with conviction having spent time with no other SET than my Orchid. I felt it was underpowered for my purposes on the Druids that I had at the time. But it was light and sweet and musical so I guess they have that in common.

You should give it a try, George. All it will cost you is round trip postage and that can't be much considering you only live a couple of hours from Vinnie. Heck, just take a day and go down and see him.

Gaara · « **Reply #12 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 01:27 am »

High end...bah I love what newer chip amps have done for the lower end of things. It is great that you can get amps that are $1000+ that sound great, but what about the budget audiophile?

This is where, IMO, chip amps really excel. I am always amazed at how good the little $39 t-amp sounds, even paired with my Gallos. If 8wpc isn't enough you could go with a gainclone like Tim Rawson makes and get ~50wpc for less then $200. For the audiophile on a tight budget these cheaper chip amps are amazing.

Jared

macrojack · « **Reply #13 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 02:18 am »

Jared's right, by god. In his context my bargain Sig 30 at $1500 is quite extravagant. And I have to say that in the realm of the sane that fact is quite supportable. It is only out here on the lunatic audiophile fringe that we see a $5000 pair of speakers and proclaim them a bargain.

Many times I have caught myself tossing dollar figures around in an audio conversation that are silly relative to the rest of my life. For instance, I currently an trying to sell my used speakers for $7500 so I can buy an $11,000 pair. And yet I have never paid more than $4500 for a car. Is anybody else that lopsided?

I guess I'm waiting for the Class D car that runs on a chip, gets 250 mpg and costs only $5K.

Thanks for that perspective, Jared. I think you raise a good point.

JoshK · « **Reply #14 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 02:41 am »

Quote from: Gaara on 8 Jul 2007, 01:27 am

High end...bah I love what newer chip amps have done for the lower end of things. It is great that you can get amps that are $1000+ that sound great, but what about the budget audiophile?

This is where, IMO, chip amps really excel. I am always amazed at how good the little $39 t-amp sounds, even paired with my Gallos. If 8wpc isn't enough you could go with a gainclone like Tim Rawson makes and get ~50wpc for less then $200. For the audiophile on a tight budget these cheaper chip amps are amazing.

Jared

t-amp isn't really a 'chipamp'. t-amp is a class d amp, chipamps really refer to opamp based amp which is typically class a/b.

denjo · « **Reply #15 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 03:03 am »

Yesterday my friend and I hooked up my repaired CIAudio D*200s and as we sat there listening to how musical a good class D amplifier can sound (that magical midrange, thus the oft comparison with SETs and tube amps), thank goodness for such new technology which allows the mass to enjoy highend sound on a modest budget. Having just taken delivery of a Hybrid car, I cannot resist the analogy of unleaded cars as Class A amps, conventional cars running on unleaded petrol as Class A/B (my previous car was a Lexus RX300) and Hybrid cars as Class D. They run cool and are very efficient and the ride is fantastic.

Best Regards
Dennis

Gordy · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 03:20 am »

Speaking of class D fun, here's a switching module that will give you your glow fix as well

richidoo · « **Reply #17 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 03:31 am »

Now that's true audiophile pornography. Nice one Gordy!

JoshK · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 04:03 am »

Gordy are those the new UCD400's? The ones with LM4562? Looks like a lot of LED biasing.

Gordy · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 Jul 2007, 05:11 am »

Yes Josh, I think they all have the 4562's now, this one has the new HxR input regulation. Doubles the price though, 210 Euros / $290.