[DVV]

Not again?

Personally, I don't much care if it uses donkey's dung, so long as it makes good music possible.

I do prefer working with solid state because to me, it makes more sense than tubes, but I'll be the first to acknowledge that this is a very personal choice.

As for how each "group" sounds, well, I could make a solid state amp sound very much akin to a tube one, and I assure you, so could Dan and Hugh, to name just two of our guys here. Yes, solid state can be tweaked to sound like tubes so much so that if you didn't look at it, you would swear it was tubes you are listening to.

But you can't tweak tubes to sound like solid state, at least that I know of. So much for which is more versatile.

I think this is a most misguided discussion. In my view, it's not how the components used sound, but rather how they have been made to sound by their respective designers. There's no denying that BOTH camps are heavily stereotyped - you are told and taught to expect a certain kind of sound from each so much so that this has become the driving force.

Cheers,
DVV

[Rob Babcock]

I don't think that's the point of the thread.  You know how a couple that's been married for 40 years will replay the same fights over and over?  That's this topic.  You just get used to arguing, and the absence of arguments is unsettling.  Nevermind that it's pointless and that it's all been said before and rehashed ad infinitum.  You just get trapped in the loop, and people seem to enjoy it.

[Sa-dono]

It had to be Jerry...  

As others have said...nope. Not valid points at all.

I know that things have been quiet..but do we really need pointless discussions that have been argued time after time?

Go out and listen to everything you can get your hands on, figure out what you like, be happy. Who cares what anyone else owns or thinks. Enough said..

[Rob Babcock]

Every hobby has it's pointless debate.  Just pop onto a shooting/hunting forum sometimes and ask the best cartridge for deer.  Shheeesh...

The problem with blanket statements is that one size rarely fits all.  And asking someone else to explain your preferences is absurd.  If you like something, fine.  That's why there are so many manufacturers out there.

Lets move on to something important, like "who's the greatest rock guitarist who ever lived..."  

[bubba966]

Every hobby has it's pointless debate.  Just pop onto a shooting/hunting forum sometimes and ask the best cartridge for deer.  Shheeesh...

I thought everyone knew that 7MM-08 is what's best for deer.  Works great on 6 point elk as well.

[Tyson]

Or pop over to a knife forum and ask is VG-10 is the best blade steel.  It's amazing to go to the spyderco forums and see the exact same behavior there as at the audio forums. . .

[audiojerry]

Ok, I have an admission to make.
I knew I was re-opening an old can of worms, and I guessed it would generate some lively debate, but the main reason for my troll was to try to engage some of the new heavy hitters into the debate like Curl, Crump, and DeWulf, along with some of the old vets like Hugh, Dan, Curt, and DVV.

Dan B. may have a great amp, I'm surprised I haven't read any reviews from AC members. I wish he could make available audition models for his amp and preamp. I believe M. DeWulf may have had Dan's amp for a review at one time; I don't know what happened there.      

Hey, aren't there some recent hard-core SS people in our Circle who have been bowled over by the Radii tube amps? What sayeth thee, thou  silent Radii owners?

[john curl]

You folks make too much out of this.  Tubes are the most linear devices that we can use.  However, they are not made in a complementary way, so we have to couple the tube stages with transformers or caps.  This is a compromise that solid state can design around.  However, fets and bipolar transistors have more higher order distortion, because their transfer function is not as linear as a tube.  The distortion produced can be reduced in all amps with negative feedback, but that creates other problems, too complex to talk about here.  The design goal is usually for either tube systems to become more perfect and solid state systems also to become more perfect, but they seem to be approaching perfection from two different sides of an ideal line.  The ideal line is the challenge for both tube or transistor designs.

[nathanm]

Dan B. may have a great amp, I'm surprised I haven't read any reviews from AC members. I wish he could make available audition models for his amp and preamp.

I'll second that!  I think the only thing holding Dan back from world domination is the RE Designs logo. It could use a re-design. HA! HA! HA! I kill me!  

And I dunno about you, but a six channel preamp could use a six channel amp to go with it.   Perhaps?  Three of them LNPA suckers and you're looking at $9,885.  Out of my league for sure!  That industrial strength preamp looks mighty good, though. Mmm...knobs....

I would like to add that Jerry's ARC tube amp sucks and that his cat was trying to send him a message by vomiting upon it.  Get a good solid state amp you big loser!  Measurements RULE!

[Paul L]

I agree with John that in high-end world the sound between tube and SS is converging since designer of both camps are having the same goal.

[Tyson]

I'm beginning to wonder if we make too much out of this. . .

[bubba966]

I would like to add that Jerry's ARC tube amp sucks and that his cat was trying to send him a message by vomiting upon it. Get a good solid state amp you big loser! Measurements RULE!

Does cat harf make a good tube damping device?

[warnerwh]

One other thing to note is if you want/need high power like 200wpc or more then tubes also can be quite expensive not to mention that it would be like a 5000 watt heater and huge.  I like the sound of tubes but the price is way high to me.  The bass is another problem.  Just personal preferance and practicality issues.  If I could get a tube amp that put out 200wpc and had great bass for a couple grand I'd buy it.

[DVV]

You folks make too much out of this.  Tubes are the most linear devices that we can use.  However, they are not made in a complementary way, so we have to couple the tube stages with transformers or caps.  This is a compromise that solid state can design around.  However, fets and bipolar transistors have more higher order distortion, because their transfer function is not as linear as a tube.  The distortion produced can be reduced in all amps with negative feedback, but that creates other problems, too co ...

John Curl?

THAT John Curl?

The "all other things being equal" John Curl? (I still keep that interview for periodical reference).

The John Curl who just happens to design audio gear? From Mark Levinson's JC preamp onwards, currently with Parasound?

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

I agree with John that in high-end world the sound between tube and SS is converging since designer of both camps are having the same goal.

Why single out the high end? Don't, or shouldn't, all audio gear designers have the same goal?

I agree "high end" designers have bigger budgets, and this is important, but my beef with the audio industry always has been that all-but-the-kitchen-sink approach is what makes modern audio gear relatively lag behind some of the stuff made years ago (relatively because the advances made are not, in my view, as large as they could and should have been).

But my faith in the "high end" is low these days, I hear far too many astronomically priced items sounding far too mundane.

Cheers,
DVV

[Paul L]

The reason is that when you go to budget product, even though you have a goal, you still can't build a perfect amp regardless of what devices you are using.  SS and tube compromise in a very different way.

[DVV]

The reason is that when you go to budget product, even though you have a goal, you still can't build a perfect amp regardless of what devices you are using.  SS and tube compromise in a very different way.

In my view, Paul, there never was, nor will there ever be any such thing as a perfect amp. Very good and getting better yes, but perfect? No.

However, that's philosophical. Realistically speaking, one can build a very, very good amp for what I feel is still a reasonable amount of money - not cheap, but not terribly expensive either. Say, 2x50W/8 ohms for say $500 all told; please note that prices of materials vary quite a lot here as compared to there, another problem we cannot help encountering in discussions such as this one. Also, the above figure is related to self-made things, not commercial offerings, which would, as a wild guess, about triple the price. Maybe even quadruple.

I completely agree that both SS and tubes must use compromises, and that they are very different for each technology. Which somehow always gets us back to the reasoning that it's not which technology one uses, but how well one uses it.

I do wish you guys could audition a Karan amp (http://www.karanacoustics.com ).

Cheers,
DVV

[Dan Banquer]

"The distortion produced can be reduced in all amps with negative feedback, but that creates other problems, too complex to talk about here......." fets and bipolar transistors have more higher order distortion, because their transfer function is not as linear as a tube."
This is not entirely true, as I have posted numerous times on AA. I have been producing equipment for over 10 years that does not have the higher order distortion products so prevalent in much of the equipment produced.
 

[Marbles]

I do wish you guys could audition a Karan amp (http://www.karanacoustics.com ).
...

I just looked at the specs and it looks VERY nice.  80KGs would be too expensive to ship around as a DEMO unit I would think though

Any idea on how much that amp costs?

[JohnR]

No, he has no idea