[Lkdog]

You aren't reading buddy....

I said the STOCK unmodified SL1200 is an entry level table.
I said I could not pass judgement on something I haven't heard (i.e. the KAB)

I will probably have a freind of mine just buy one at retail to check it
out because I have never seen so much controversy around a component.

Now that's dedication to the cause, considering the level of stuff we
get on a regular basis just sent here for review.

You're really misconstruing what I have to say.  I'm all for finding a
great table in the 800-1500 range, modded or stock, because quite honestly
that's where a big chunk of audiophiles live.

We don't do shootouts per se, because so often the difference between
a few products is usually more a question of flavor rather than one
being dramatically better than the other.  Component A might have better
midrange definition, B might be able to resolve more high frequency info,
while C might have a little more weight in the bass.  Which one is better?

Depends on your taste.

I guarantee that no matter how good the KAB is, a Rega guy will like his better,
and a VPI guy will like his better, etc.  I don't care about that.  I just want my
readers to find the sound THEY want....

The goal with getting a KAB 1200 is to see just what it will and won't do.

I guarantee that it won't do everything, because precious few components
do.  What's important is to try and evaluate it fairly and describe it accurately
enough so that a potential buyer can say "Yep, that's what I want"

As I've said in other posts, if we don't describe it accurately, it doesn't serve anyone.

Got it?

Jeff-

I do find it interesting that you voluntarily inserted yourself in this thread by ironically announcing
"can't get in the middle of this one" and then proceeded to do that very thing with your offhand analysis of a stock unit.

I did read your posts.
I don't really appreciate the tone of your response, but maybe you are having a bad day. I am assuming that is not the typical manner in which you attempt to engage visitors to your website publications.

Good luck in your work.

[mcrespo71]

As far as the TonePub gentleman pronouncing the TT as entry level and inherently limited even with the KAB mods he has never heard, that is a surprising stance for an alleged professional reviewer.

As someone just reading this thread, it seems Jeff's tone was not out of line, given you called him an alleged professional reviewer and then proceeded to misquote him.   

[TheChairGuy]

Seriously, Jeff's remarks seemed to be fine/reasonably fair...he's allowed to have a pre-meditated belief if he likes to (if he even had one to begin with).  What he found, apparently, was that the stock SL-1200 did nothing really to sway his prior belief.

I truly have to agree with him...there are several belt drive machines that can probably better a stock SL-1200 at similar price points.  But, for $600-$800 more and some elbow grease and ingenuity - it would take a considerably more expensive belt drive deck to beat it. It just needs coaxing from stock....more so than most belt drivers (which are, by their very nature, better isolated by design).

Anyhow - Jeff's been a great addition to AudioCircle since he gotten a circle here.  He's put out there a lot of great, debatable topics on AC that has spiced it up immeasurably over time   

[TONEPUB]

Well, I guess my enthusiasm got the best of me, but I'm not getting how
you consider my analysis of the stock unit "offhand" and me having a bad
day...

I spent four months listening to a stock SL1200 in the context of a
reference system worth over 100k and also used it in a real world
system that was a lot more similar to what someone buying a 400
dollar turntable would have.

I compared the SL1200 to a number of tables in its price range (Rega P1,
P2 and P3, similar stuff from Pro-ject and a Music Hall 2.1 and 5.1) as
well as tables far superior (the SME 10, Oracle, Rega P9 and AVID Volvere)
and used a range of cartridges from a 30 dollar Grado all the way up
to a Sumiko Blackbird.

Again as a reference, I used a phono preamp that was way better
than the abilities of the SL1200 (the ASR Basis Exclusive and BAT VK-P10SE)
as well as a couple of very inexpensive phono stages (Bottlehead and Sumiko
Tube Box)

Then I probably listened to at least a hundred records over that time period.

So I think your calling me an "alleged reviewer" and my analysis "offhanded"
is pretty insulting and shortsighted. After publishing my own magazine for two
years now that has over 60 thousand readers worldwide and having worked
for the Absolute Sound for a year, I don't know what else I have to do to
remove the alleged status and make you happy.

On top of that, you haven't even read my review!!  Whos making offhanded
analysis now?

If you happen to be a grumpy SL1200 owner that's feeling put out.  I can't
fix that problem if that's the case...

[TONEPUB]

To spoil the ending of my upcoming review, here's what I found
comparing the SL1200 to a Rega P2 with the same cartridges
(A Shure M97, Grado Wood (don't remember which one, it was
$300 and they all look the same!!) and a Sumiko Blackbird....

I honestly felt that the Rega had a bit better midrange presentation,
more liquid, a bit wider soundstage, etc.

But the SL-1200 because of the direct drive and more torque, etc
had a much more solid bottom end.  Quite honestly, I thought the
SL-1200 was kind of dark over all.  I also compared it to the Audio
Technica SL-1200 clone and with the same cartridges (same headshells
I just moved em from one table to another) the AT was much livelier
through the midrange, but still not as 3D as the Rega

Also, for what it's worth, those Music hall cartridges are pretty
thin overall, so I'm sure your Benz sounded WAY BETTER.  I have
had luck with the Music Hall cartridges loading them way down to
about 100 ohms....

I can definitely see why the KAB mod of rewiring the SL1200 would
wake this table up considerably.

Where it gets murky is that the SL1200 tended to work better with
the Shure and especially the blackbird (possibly the Blackbird being
 a touch on the bright side cancelled out some of the wiring issues)
where the AT table was spot on with the Grado from a tonality standpoint.

The differences weren't as huge as you might suspect, and as always
there really isn't a "winner" here.  Some will prefer the tonality of
the Technics and I think those that are particularly pitch sensitive
will also prefer this table.

Those who are a little more predisposed to "midrange magic" might
prefer the REGA.

In the end, it is very system dependent.

Does that help?

After all this debate, I wonder if anyone will read the review when
we post it next week!!

Arrgh.

[TheChairGuy]

Grant,

I am allowed my opinion, as are others. My life isn't lived to please you - it's to please me   I'll make whatever rhetorical statements I'd like to - thank you - and would hope others with reasonable opinions and experiences would feel free to do so, too.

I've heard the MMF-5 and a stock SL-1200 (Mk. II) at different times NOT in my system and thought the MMF sounded better about 4-5 years ago.  I can't say it was a long session either time, or even a well set up one, or what difference cartridge or isolation or set-up played with either...but it was what it was.

As well, I've lived with a mechanically similar unit to the SL-1200 in my QL-F6 (lots of Matsushita parts with direct drive, quartz locked servo and similar specs) for a year now and I thought it was inferior to the MMF-5 when bone stock (by memory only).

I haven't heard the newer SL-1200's - I think that it might matter - Mk. V, etc

[TheChairGuy]

Actually, the specs on my deck are superior to the Technics 1200......and it has an oversized platter that weighs 2lbs more and it has an oil-damped tonearm (vertical and horizontal) to boot.  It's quite possibly a higher spec table than the stock SL-1200 overall...and I liked it less than my old Thorens TD-316 (which cost similarly in the early/mid-80's).  $300 new, give or take, each cost at that time.

My ($2000+ retail then -so not directly comparable) Townshend Rock/Helius arm/modded Grado from 1987-88 pissed all over it, too...the first few days of ownership of the JVC. Two examples I can speak authoritatively about in comparison.

I actually just bought a BIC 940 belt driver to measure it up to (just to have a cheap belt drive around for reference sake - cost all of $38 on ebay, but was a good performer in it's day in 1979 or so)...but, unfortunately, one channel seems to be out so I cannot compare the two side-by-side fairly.

But, somewhere along the line when adding mod after mod it turned into a stellar, superior performer...absolutely outstanding in near every way I could ask of it.  I'm sold on the merits of Direct Drive...but only after considerable fondling and heavy-petting 

[TheChairGuy]

Fester. 

[Lkdog]

So I think your calling me an "alleged reviewer" and my analysis "offhanded"
is pretty insulting and shortsighted. After publishing my own magazine for two
years now that has over 60 thousand readers worldwide and having worked
for the Absolute Sound for a year, I don't know what else I have to do to
remove the alleged status and make you happy.

If you happen to be a grumpy SL1200 owner that's feeling put out.  I can't
fix that problem if that's the case...

Sorry, never heard of you or your publications until I stumbled upon this thread this evening.
I made an assumption you were some type of reviewer based upon some of your comments.

Not feeling put out at all, thank you.

As I said before, good luck in your work.

[Nels Ferre]

But the SL-1200 because of the direct drive and more torque, etc
had a much more solid bottom end.  Quite honestly, I thought the
SL-1200 was kind of dark over all.  I also compared it to the Audio
Technica SL-1200 clone and with the same cartridges (same headshells
I just moved em from one table to another) the AT was much livelier
through the midrange, but still not as 3D as the Rega.

Jeff has a good ear.  These differences can be easily explained: Michael Fremer, when reviewing 'tables, usually checks speed accuracy, referencing a 1Khz test tone, and measuring the variance, if any, with a frequency counter. The Rega units have historically run ever so slightly fast, which results in the lively 3-D reproduction noted in the Rega. The lightweight plinth may have something to do with this as well- Roy Gandy feels that it is better to work with the laws of physics re: vibrations and resonances as opposed to trying to eliminate them.

The more solid bottom end noted with the Technics may be plinth related or possibly due to speed accuracy and lack of drift that is definitely a plus with the Technics  system.  Due to the adjustable VTA, it is far easier to get the cartridge set up correctly.

As far as the Audio Technica unit, I have no explanation.  This is the first time I've heard anything good about it. There are some negative postings on it over at the Asylum, from those who have used it.

I've owned a Rega Planar 2 in the past. Nice for what it is, a budget 'table, nothing more. I think Scott F used to refer to it as a "tinker toy" when I had it. I wouldn't go that far, but the arm certainly outclasses the 'table. In fact, the plinth, platter, and motor really aren't special. Whether one likes or dislikes the Technics, I don't feel anyone can dispute that it offers a lot of value for the money. As far as the Audio Technica, I don't see why anyone would buy the copy, when the original isn't that much more.

And no, I don't own a Technics, before anyone asks.

[lcrim]

Kevin now has the entire Sensible Sound Review posted on his website.http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/index.htm
Click on reviews in the middle of the splash page.

[doug s.]

Jeff-

I do find it interesting that you voluntarily inserted yourself in this thread by ironically announcing
"can't get in the middle of this one" and then proceeded to do that very thing with your offhand analysis of a stock unit.

I did read your posts.
I don't really appreciate the tone of your response, but maybe you are having a bad day. I am assuming that is not the typical manner in which you attempt to engage visitors to your website publications.

Good luck in your work.

are you reading the same posts in this thread that i am?  my reaction to your first post was almost identical to that of tonepub's.  this last post of yours is completely off the wall, imo.

and, in case you are wondering, while i do not own a technics deck, the sl1200 would be my first choice in a new deck in its price-range, & the kabusa sl1200 would be my first choice in a deck in its price range - IF i were limited to buying a new deck.  of course, my first choice at either price range would be something used - either a  vintage empire at the lower price, or a used sota, well-tempered, vpi, basis, oracle delphi, or whatever else i could nab w/a bit of patience...

ymmv,

doug s.

[James Romeyn]

I guess it's not a coincidence that the items that convert electrical energy to acoustic energy or the inverse (speakers & TT's) seem to cause the MOST controversy in an already controversial hobby.

This stuff gets so easily heated it's like we're giving directions for potentially life/death triage of major trauma victims at an MCI (mass casualty incident): forget calling a yellow alert (potential) this is absolutely a red alert (definite MCI).

Jeff, where can we see listed the contents of your best system?     

 

[TheChairGuy]

As poor Jeff / TONEPUB got pummelled a bit (and, to a lesser extend, me) for citing his opinion on the bone stock SL-1200...I thought it might be interesting to re-quote Chris Brady of Teres Audio from a topic a couple months back....

A lot of direct drive tables were developed in the 70's and 80s but most of them were not that good. Listening to them showed that the topology was promising but the overall result was just so-so. I think that the problem was the inexpensive implementation and not the topology. My experience leads me to believe that it's both difficult and expensive to get direct drive right. Since there is zero motor to platter isolation even minute flaws can present major sonic problems. I know because I ran into a bunch of them. Because of the unforgiving nature of direct drive I don't anticipate that anyone will be able to produce a true high end direct drive motor that is also low cost. Even though I am a major fan of direct drive I still think that if the budget for the motor is less that say $500 belt drive will deliver superior results.

The whole shebang here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40160.50

So, he's a fan of direct drive (as am I), but thinks at this price point several belt drives would exceed it's performance. His insight on inherent lack of platter isolation seems to be the major issue with it. I concur, completely.

I know all of you Technics SL-1200 fans have gotten notable performance gains from the fluid damper, outboard motor, and re-wire....but, I think by far, the biggest performance gains for the least expenditure will be had by improving the inherent disadvantage of direct drive itself...isolation; specifically, platter isolation.

Larry Crim is on the right track by using the Isoplatmat....spraying the underside of the constantly ringing platter with damping compound spray and a light application of Plast-i-Clay underneath will do further wonders for it.  As will bolstering Technics already good efforts at internal damping by adding 8-10 lbs more Plast-i-Clay to the interior of the unit.  Finally, setting it up on some surface where it's isolated from external sympathetic vibrations and one where internally generated vibrations can be relieved will further the experience. 

Without focus on isolation, and very specifically on platter isolation, I think the SL-1200 series will be bested by several belt drives of similar cost.  But, with a couple hours of time and limited expenditure of spray damping compound, Plast-i-Clay and platter and sub-platter mats....you'll have yourself a deck that many $$ thousands in a belt drive can't touch...let alone all that convenience (no spindle bearing means no periodic re-oiling, no belt changes ever, and direct drive is rarely effected by a perfectly flat surface - so you can be a little more slovenly in placement of fore and aft)  Adding the KAB perks of fluid damping, partial motor dis-engagement and arm re-wiring.....will find you a deck that is difficult to fault at almost any price. 

Okay, that's my piece - please, be nice.  Remember, I'm a direct drive fan - I just see things for what they are 

[doug s.]

re: cbrady's comments, if you are talking about developing a motor for less than $500 today, i might agree with you (and him).  but, the motor for the sl1200 was developed a long time ago, & that turntable, even today, likely outsells all other turntables combined.  it has sold over 3 million units since its intro, that's like >100,000 turntables a year!!!.   when you know you are gonna be selling literally thousands of turntables, you can amortize the design cost.  i suspect if someone were gonna develop a direct-drive motor to the quality & specs of the technics today, the cost would be >$1000, yust for the motor...  mebbe more.   mebbe a lot more...

as i have said on this forum many times, for the cost of an sl1200 or a kabusa sl1200, i would likely purchase a used deck.  but, if i were buying new, the kabusa sl1200 would be my 1st choice, the stock sl1200 would be my second...

ymmv,

doug s.

As poor Jeff / TONEPUB got pummelled a bit (and, to a lesser extend, me) for citing his opinion on the bone stock SL-1200...I thought it might be interesting to re-quote Chris Brady of Teres Audio from a topic a couple months back....

A lot of direct drive tables were developed in the 70's and 80s but most of them were not that good. Listening to them showed that the topology was promising but the overall result was just so-so. I think that the problem was the inexpensive implementation and not the topology. My experience leads me to believe that it's both difficult and expensive to get direct drive right. Since there is zero motor to platter isolation even minute flaws can present major sonic problems. I know because I ran into a bunch of them. Because of the unforgiving nature of direct drive I don't anticipate that anyone will be able to produce a true high end direct drive motor that is also low cost. Even though I am a major fan of direct drive I still think that if the budget for the motor is less that say $500 belt drive will deliver superior results.

The whole shebang here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40160.50

So, he's a fan of direct drive (as am I), but thinks at this price point several belt drives would exceed it's performance. His insight on inherent lack of platter isolation seems to be the major issue with it. I concur, completely.

I know all of you Technics SL-1200 fans have gotten notable performance gains from the fluid damper, outboard motor, and re-wire....but, I think by far, the biggest performance gains for the least expenditure will be had by improving the inherent disadvantage of direct drive itself...isolation; specifically, platter isolation.

Larry Crim is on the right track by using the Isoplatmat....spraying the underside of the constantly ringing platter with damping compound spray and a light application of Plast-i-Clay underneath will do further wonders for it.  As will bolstering Technics already good efforts at internal damping by adding 8-10 lbs more Plast-i-Clay to the interior of the unit.  Finally, setting it up on some surface where it's isolated from external sympathetic vibrations and one where internally generated vibrations can be relieved will further the experience. 

Without focus on isolation, and very specifically on platter isolation, I think the SL-1200 series will be bested by several belt drives of similar cost.  But, with a couple hours of time and limited expenditure of spray damping compound, Plast-i-Clay and platter and sub-platter mats....you'll have yourself a deck that many $$ thousands in a belt drive can't touch...let alone all that convenience (no spindle bearing means no periodic re-oiling, no belt changes ever, and direct drive is rarely effected by a perfectly flat surface - so you can be a little more slovenly in placement of fore and aft)  Adding the KAB perks of fluid damping, partial motor dis-engagement and arm re-wiring.....will find you a deck that is difficult to fault at almost any price. 

Okay, that's my piece - please, be nice.  Remember, I'm a direct drive fan - I just see things for what they are 

[TheChairGuy]

but, if i were buying new, the kabusa sl1200 would be my 1st choice, the stock sl1200 would be my second...

Kinda' for me - except in reverse.  The stock SL-1200 would be my first choice...THEN the KAB uber-version of it.  Why?

Because, I wouldn't have improved on a belt drive of similar cost to a stock SL-1200 ($500, or thereabouts) until it was well isolated, damped and taken large efforts to dampen and isolate it's platter....the weak spot in an otherwise good sonic-bang for the buck 

When you add all the KAB goodies for another $500.00, it makes it that much better.  But, without dealing with it's first and foremost achilles heel (the achilles heel of almost any direct drive - the platter and isolation/damping issues), you're hearing a lot of nasty artifacts that won't exist of belt drivers at any price (as it is inherently better isolated thru a belt).

So, most comparisons of the $500.00 Technics SL-1200/1210 will probably end up with a not-so-pleasant summary by the reviewer in the end (nee, TONEPUB, Vinyl Anarchronist, and many enthusiasts, including myself)....not because they necessarily have a wrong-headed audiophool notion of direct drive, but because the real nature of it's inferiority (if you will) has not been addressed. 

$200.00 in commonly found damping compounds and an Isoplatmat, along with approximately 3 hours of your time, will begat a fundamentally great deck in the SL-1200 for $700.00. The equal of which won't be found for many $$$thousands in a belt driver.  That is what I found, at least, on two mechanically similar direct drive units from sister company JVC in the past 2 years.  I'm not discounting the positive benefits of the KAB mods, or the goodness of the unit to begin with, I just think the wrong areas of improvement have been dealt with first thus far.  It's not quite putting lipstick on a pig, but you are addressing secondary issues without tackling the main one(s) - isolation, and most specifically, platter isolation.

To that firm foundation, adding another $500-$600 in KAB goodies takes you to a world-class reference level where you may be giving nothing up to turntables costing up to 10-15x more - to a point where spending anything more is probably never going to amount to any more sonic satisfaction 

It's NOT the inexpensive arm, cheap stock tinned wiring or speed hunting and lurching necessarily - all commonly used 'reasons' for it's dismissal as a great deck in stock form - it's the inherent platter and isolation issues with any direct drive turntable     Fix that, and you're well on the way to eliminating competitively priced belt drivers.  Add the KAB goodies (and, of course, get a fine cartridge, phono pre-amp and set it up right, but those are givens, no?) and you'll have a world class deck that won't give an ounce of audio-phool liquidity, transparency, dynamics, bass heft, tone, stereo imaging (fill in the blanks if I haven't addressed your bug-a-boo)  or anything else to any deck at any (almost) any price.

This isn't so much a rant, as it is a re-direction...and trying to deflect some criticism that Jeff / TONEPUB took over his honest opinions of the stock SL-1200.   

[James Romeyn]

I owned about a dozen or more of virtually every popular belt drive from the late '80s to mid '90s (VPI, Sota, Linn, Well Tempered, Mapleknoll, etc.), from the $1k up to $7k msrp range (minus arm).  Also a ton of experience w/ all kinds of mid-to-high-priced high-end arms, all different architectures/pivots.  (I was doing sales back then, helped w/ TT setup at CES many times.)

Finally after George Lewis' suggestions, tried the early-'80s Sony PSX900 (if memory serves), a DD linear-servo-tracker.  I now own a DD Denon DP-59 servo-pivot-arm.

Every single statement I've ever read from John TCG on this subject absolutly is consistent w/ my personal experience, 100%.  I heard his table.  I'd employ it happily in an instant, w/ proper isolation. 


Except for Joe Cohen's insanely difficult to use Mapleknoll TT (it kicks major arse sonically), the belt drives I've carefully auditioned, including, w/ all due respect, Dan Wright's $15k personal table at THE Show '07, have so much W&F I can't really call them high-fidelity.  Others tolerate them happily & that's fine w/ me.  I have no dog in this fight.  My Denon is practically worthless as a resale item, & I don't care.         

[Jampot]

I now own a DD Denon DP-59 servo-pivot-arm.

Jim,

As an aside, did you cure the mute circuit problem on the Denon?

(another) Jim

[Psychicanimal]

Except for Joe Cohen's insanely difficult to use Mapleknoll TT (it kicks major arse sonically), the belt drives I've carefully auditioned, including, w/ all due respect, Dan Wright's $15k personal table at THE Show '07, have so much W&F I can't really call them high-fidelity.  Others tolerate them happily & that's fine w/ me.  I have no dog in this fight.  My Denon is practically worthless as a resale item, & I don't care.         

Sad but true...

[TheChairGuy]

Sweet, Jim/RibbonSpeakers    Great choice - nice looking decks those Denons' were, too.  I think it's the DP-47's on up with the servo/Q-damp arms that are best of that line.  The newest $650 Denon does not have the fabulous Q damped arm.....it's not in the league of your baby.

Just spray that underside with some tacky sound barrier stuff you can get at many Auto places (internet, and maybe even Best Buy).  I bought Dupli-Color's version for $8.00 + sipping for 16 oz.  You can spray 8 to 12 platters for that amount...so be kind to your new vinylphile neighbors in Utah 

Go buy 10 lbs of Plast-i-Clay and stuff the shit outta' that thing's innards.....then add a thin layer to the platter underside once the sound barrier stuff dries.  Go buy an $100.00 Isoplatmat to set under your record mat of choice.....and you will be rewarded with sweet sounds that you'd have had might pay 10-20x as much to enjoy in a great belt drive unit.

Is it semi-auto, too?  All the better - vinyl is inconvenient enough to begin with