[lcrim]

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/KAB+Special+Edition+Technics+SL-1200MK2SE+and+custom+modifications-a0163469857

[TheChairGuy]

Impressive service.....KAB will: re-machine the platter center hole to ensure an excellent fit; test the platter for flatness with guaranteed less than + - 0.005" planarity as measured on the platter edge; check and correct the azimuth alignment of cartridge socket

 

[TONEPUB]

Can't get in the middle of this one.

However I am finishing a review of a stock SL1200 and it's not a bad
table for $400...

I thought this guys comments about the one - eyed monster in the
world of the blind were pretty funny.

[TONEPUB]

It's all price driven, honestly.

At the price point the SL1200 is competing, it performed way better than
I expected, did some things right, some things not the way I would like
them and some things barely at all, but that's all I expect from a 400
dollar table.  Heck, that's all I expect from anything in the 4-800 range.

There is a lot of decent stuff out there for that kind of money (new) that
will play records and give you a taste of the analog world.

Nothing wrong with that at all.  Everyone has to start somewhere and for
many, that's all the further they may want to go.  That's ok too!

I'm still very intrigued with the KAB version, but they won't even talk
to us.  I thought it kind of odd that we regularly get tables in the 5-15
thousand dollar range for review and they didn't want to trust us with
one for review. I think (and justifiably so on their end..) that they were
nervous that we might trash it or compare it to much more expensive
tables, which would be very unfair.

Again, I was very open minded and would not even have investigated
the SL1200 had I not heard so much about it here and on the Steve Hoffman
forum.  So, it was a lot of fun to have the table in.  I even got my hands
on the Audio Technica clone of the SL1200.

And if you've been a regular reader of TONE, we haven't trashed anyones
product in two years.  What we try to do is identify the character of a piece
of gear, give it a lot of listening time and put it in a system that is somewhat
comparable to what a typical owner might have and then in a reference level
system to see just how much it is capable of.

So the resounding endorsement is relative.  For someone on a budget
with a decent entry level system, the SL1200 is a fine choice.  No disrespect
intended to any SL1200 owners, stock or modified....

[Toka]

Thanks for posting the link, tvad. I read that earlier but spaced on posting it here. 

It was a nice review overall, though like you said I wish there was more 'flesh' to it in regards to associated equipment. I can't wait until the day I call up KAB and order mine...it does sound a bit different from other tables in, and above, the price range, but I suppose if someone was used to hearing some other lesser designs it might sound 'weird' or whatever. I am sensitive to pitch variation, though, and I don't know of anything that isn't at least 3 times the price that even comes close to this deck in that regard, if at all. And even then, it won't have the rock of Gibraltar build to it. 

[TheChairGuy]

Gosh - I don't think the merit of the SL-1200 will ever be fully agreed upon.

Seems like another brouhaha we're involved in with this one 

Oh we as audiophools are just so glutton 

[Toka]

No brouhaha here (honestly...why waste the time?). Just difference in taste, opinion, perspective, etc.

[honesthoff]

I find it interesting the reviewer mentions that the effects of the Fluid Damper were measurable, but not audible using headphones. What kind of legitimate review of a turntable is conducted with headphones and not also with loudspeakers considering a substantial aspect of turntable function is related to vibration control?

Perplexing at the very least.

Note to reviewers: please list the associated equipment used to conduct your reviews.

I believe David Rich used the NHT Xd speaker system as well as headphones, and was concerned about placing the TT so close to the sub in his smallish listening set-up that it would effect the sound.  I'm a big fan of SS, and have subscribed for many years.  It bothers me too that often they leave out the associated equipment list.

[Psychicanimal]

For someone on a budget with a decent entry level system, the SL1200 is a fine choice.

With such a preconception, do you really expect Kevin to send you a unit? 

I think I am speaking for all of us 1200 modders here...our systems are NOT 'entry level'.   My four vintage SS monoblock amps kick some serious ass and so does my Modwright modded units: belt drive transport, Marchand x-over and Swans M1 mini monitors.  Oh, and I almost forget about the $7K worth of power delivery/noise control stuff in my rig.

 

[gooberdude]

is there more to that review??     just as the reviewer was painstakinly getting to cartridge comparisons the article stopped & I don't see a page 2 anywhere.


Kinda interesting that the author records his LP's to CD when doing critical evaluation..i've been doing this for a few years.   It adds so many variables though, like what kind of burner and computer...etc. 

[gooberdude]

Tvad, in your opinion can/could/should a better arm be used if someone wanted to really max out the KAB 1200's?      i'm seriously considering one and just wondering how far one needs to take this thing before the upgrade bug completely subsides.

I'm all about the new power supply and wire and damping trough, and most of the other tweaks.   haven't heard much about difft arms though.    Not knocking the stock, just in a 'sky is the limit' train of thought.

[TONEPUB]

This is why I hate getting in the middle of these discussions (you would think I would know better by now...)

I went down the path with modding a Rega P25 for over a year and I completely understand the rationale.
Like with anything, it is often a lot of fun to take a relatively inexpensive product do some mods yourself
to take it to another level is very satisfying.  When I got done doing all the mods to my P25 that I bought
used for 600 dollars, and then added about 700 dollars worth of parts it definitely revealed a lot more
musical information than a stock P25 which was about 1300 new.  It also did a very good job in a side
by side comparison with the new P5, which I believe is about $2500.

But putting it up against the flagship P9, it didn't even come close.

I did the same thing with my BMW 325i.  Swapped suspension components, chip, exhaust, blah, blah.
Is it a lot of fun to drive?  Yep.  Is it way more engaging when I started? Yep.  Does it come close to
a new M3? Nope, not at all.  Am I gonna get smoked by a Subaru WRX at the stoplight every time? sure thing.
But in the end, I'm still having a blast with my little modded 325i....

Unfortunately, the worst part of this job is that everyone thinks what they own is the best thing there
is and that their modded this or that is way better than things costing ten times more.

In over 25 years spent in this world, I've yet to see that.

You can be grumpy and argue with me all you want, but I stick by it.  That's not to say some decent
mods to a fundamentally strong piece of equipment doesn't offer tremendous value, it does.  But to
think that changing some wiring and some other odds and ends on a Technics SL-1200 will transform
it into an SME table is really wishful thinking.

I don't have a huge emotional attachment to either one of my three reference systems.  Granted
I enjoy music on them tremendously, but they all have a specific purpose and they do what I need
them to do.  Some people would argue my choices, but I have had some of the top people in
the industry in my studio and they all thought I had pretty good sound, so I'm comfy with them.

And had you read my post closer, I was referring to the stock SL1200.  As I have not listened to
the KAB unit, I will not make a final judgement on anything I've not heard in my system. 

I'll stand by my comment that I wouldn't suggest a stock SL1200 for anything more than an entry
level system.  (Nor would I suggest a Rega P2, or a similarly priced Pro-ject or Music Hall for more than
an entry level system)

You guys need to chill out and not take this so personally.  If you enjoy your system and you
are getting the results you want, that's all that matters.  I spend 10 hours a day most days
listening and comparing things to my reference system/components.

Some resolve more detail, some less.  Some are more musical, some are less.  That's the
way it goes; that's what we try to investigate. 

[Lkdog]

According to those who have swapped arms on a KAB modded table with supposed higher end arms-they ended up often preferring the stock arm IIRC. This was in some older threads on Agon I believe.

Psychicanimal knows more about that than most I believe.


As far as the TonePub gentleman pronouncing the TT as entry level and inherently limited even with the KAB mods he has never heard, that is a surprising stance for an alleged professional reviewer.

Yes, I have a modded KAB Technics SL-1200.
I enjoy it immensely and it is one piece in my system I do not think of replacing.

[TONEPUB]

You aren't reading buddy....

I said the STOCK unmodified SL1200 is an entry level table.
I said I could not pass judgement on something I haven't heard (i.e. the KAB)

I will probably have a freind of mine just buy one at retail to check it
out because I have never seen so much controversy around a component.

Now that's dedication to the cause, considering the level of stuff we
get on a regular basis just sent here for review.

You're really misconstruing what I have to say.  I'm all for finding a
great table in the 800-1500 range, modded or stock, because quite honestly
that's where a big chunk of audiophiles live.

We don't do shootouts per se, because so often the difference between
a few products is usually more a question of flavor rather than one
being dramatically better than the other.  Component A might have better
midrange definition, B might be able to resolve more high frequency info,
while C might have a little more weight in the bass.  Which one is better?

Depends on your taste.

I guarantee that no matter how good the KAB is, a Rega guy will like his better,
and a VPI guy will like his better, etc.  I don't care about that.  I just want my
readers to find the sound THEY want....

The goal with getting a KAB 1200 is to see just what it will and won't do.

I guarantee that it won't do everything, because precious few components
do.  What's important is to try and evaluate it fairly and describe it accurately
enough so that a potential buyer can say "Yep, that's what I want"

As I've said in other posts, if we don't describe it accurately, it doesn't serve anyone.

Got it?

[TheChairGuy]

Based only on my experience with two JVC DD decks (wholly owned by Matsushita, Technics parent, and loaded with Matsushita gear within including the entire motor)....the stock versions are entry-level only.  Further, direct drive units have the unfortunate disadvantage of having horrible isolation...as their motor is inherently attached.

I actually think the need for mods to all direct drive decks is imperative...more so then equivalent belt drives of similar cost.  For $400, there are many belt drivers that would sound better.

Besides the KAB upgrade path (fluid damping, outboard power supply, wiring and strobe disabler - probably in that order of benefit, overall), the deck needs to be well isolated to allow the sympathetic vibrations to move both out and block from entering in.  Finally, and not least, the deck needs to be damped internally and especially that of the ringing 4 lb platter.  A Technics 17oz supermat ain't near enough ....you need to further damp it with the Isoplatmat, sticky mastic damping compound underneath, Plast-i-Clay and or other ways. 

Graininess - much a function of that motor churning below and attached directly to the spindle - is seriously negated when you do so. Those of you that have done nothing further then a thick mat on your SL-1200 are in for a real treat when you seriously dampen that ringing platter 

[TheChairGuy]

Don't know why it's not working....the 'system' link works for me.  Anywho...here's what it says:

System overview
It shares space with a mountain of work stuff...but it usually sounds okay for me. As I learn more, I spend less and all for the better of audio and my finances.

Component listing
Digital Source    Coby DVD-207 (CD ain't great, so I spend as little as possible on it)
Analog Source    JVC QL-F6 Direct Drive /  cartridge: primarily Pickering XLZ7500s / brass toes and 3.5" maple block
Other Sources    Tuner built in to Preamp (see below)
Preamp    Mitsubishi DA-C20 Tuner/Preamp (dual mono) or Quicksilver Full Functioned Preamp
Power Amp    Vintage Dukane 50w tube mono's (updated/modded)
Speakers    Linaeum Towers
Speaker Cables    Alpha-Core MI-2
Interconnects    Monster Cable and Revelation Audio Labs
Power Cables    None at this time
Headphones/Amp    Grado SR-60 modded by Revelation Audio Labs, Westone UM-2 canalphone
Racking    Target 3 shelf/sand filled
Power Conditioning    Brick Wall, Enacom, PS Audio Noise Harvester
Tuning and Tweaks    Sonex wall treatments as needed
Other Components    Pretty much the basics of 2 channel

Also, should add, I listen to music 8 hours daily on this system for about 200 days a year...and another few hours per day on another hundred days.  So, everything is noticeable and gain can't be tolerated.  The stock JVC deck(s) were both grainy - as I assume the Technics would be before critically damping all you can.

EDIT: Have had a BPT-2 power conditioner...was quite good at many things, but, overall it made things worse.  The only thing plugged into the Brick Wall is my TT...the preamp is plugged into the wall (Porter Port cryo'ed receptacle) and as it has receptacles built in to the preamp, I have a couple components runnign off that and benefitting from it's internal filter(s). The power strip  juices the amps.  The Enacom and Noise Harvester do a nice job of cleaning everything up a bit.  The system sounds wonderfully natural now and has plenty of depth and width to the soundstage (the bi-directional Linaeum tweeters almost will it so).

My speakers are on brass screws (works as good as points in the past for  - and cost is negligible down at the local hardware store. They raise up the speaker (benefit #1) and hold it steady (benefit #2)

[TONEPUB]

Chair guy:  Thanks for a little validation!

For what its worth, I did put the SL-1200 on the Minus-K isolation
base and it did open up tremendously.  However, putting a 2700
dollar isolation base under a 400 dollar table isn't terribly practical.

We also have one of our writers working on a review of the old Technics
SP-10mk II.  That was a pretty amazing table in the day, so I'm
anxious to see how it stacks up.

For me, it's all fun to investigate.

And for those of you are wondering what I base my opinions on and what
I'm using for references:

System overview:

Dedicated 16 x 24 foot room with three dedicated 20 amp lines.  13 inch
concrete floor.  All drywall glued and screwed down with R-27 insulation in
walls and R-32 in ceiling.  GIK monster bass traps in all corners.  GIK panels
behind main speakers, SONEX on the side walls for first reflections.  As I have
a peak in my roof, there are three GIK panels going the length of the roof
to try and eliminate that problem.

Components in main system:

Digital Source:  Meridian 808, Wadia 581i, Benchmark DAC-1 USB (for laptop sound)

Analog Sources:  SME 10 w/SMEV arm and MoFi 3.5C cartridge, AVID Volvere
w/SME 309 arm and Dynavector 17D3, Oracle Delphi V w/SME iv.Vi arm and
Grado "The Statement" cartridge, TEAC A4300

SME and AVID are run through an ASR Basis Exclusive Phono stage and the
Oracle uses a BAT VK-P10SE.

Preamp:  Conrad Johnson ACT2/Series II

Power Amp:  Conrad Johnson Premier 350

Speakers:  Martin Logan Summit

Interconnects:  Tara Labs the One between the Meridian and CJ, Cardas Golden Reference
between everything else.  DH Labs Air matrix from my TEAC 4300.  15 foot run
of Cardas cable between ACT2 and Premier 350 off ground on Dedicated Audio
Cable towers

Power Cables:  Running Springs Mongoose and Essential Sound Products
The Essence "Reference"  DH Labs Power Plus on turntable power supplies

Racks:  Finite Elemente Pagode Signature (3) and one Pagode signature amp
stand for Premier 350.  All racks on Finite Cerapucks; Meridian, Wadia and
ACT 2 on Ceraballs

Power Conditioning:  Running Springs Duke on dedicated line for Premier 350,
pair of Running Springs Jacos on seperate lines for all other components

Will post some pics as soon as I can figure out how to upload.

[Toka]

I agree that people have a tendency to trumpet their own gear choices above and beyond others...but I also see, quite often, people having a tendency to denigrate gear that they seem 'beneath' their own, typically based mostly on price or reputation (I'm speaking generally here, not directed at anyone in this thread). Of course, using price as a means to divine quality is pure folly, as there are several attributes (many having little or nothing to do with ultimate sound output) that factor into it.

Its silly, in a hobby centered so much around taste, to declare anything the 'best' anyway. If such a thing existed (whether it be a TT or something else), we would have figured it out already and everybody would own it. I have several 'checkpoints' to determine what is best for me, and right now, the KAB '1200 is on the top of that list, far above anything else (as I noted, I don't own one yet). Sure, if I had an unlimited budget, and wanted to fiddle around a bit more, I'd get an SME 30/2 with a Graham Phantom tonearm and be happy with it (I will note, though, that the 'points of praise' applied to this 'table are quite close to those that apply to the '1200, vis a vie other comparable 'tables). But I don't, so I don't even think about it.

In the end, its silly to argue over (taste, that is). But, I *do* take exception to the propagation of false truths, which when concerning the '1200 is a quite common event, even from people with decades in the game (like the inference I read elsewhere that the '1200 isn't handmade, and comes flying off a conveyor belt in a sweltering factory somewhere). So, lets just keep things in perspective and enjoy the tunes! 

[TONEPUB]

Excellent points!

I'm still like a little kid after all these years.  I get just as excited about
reasonably priced stuff as expensive stuff.  It's always fun to find something
or someone with a new approach.  That was why I chased down the SL1200
path in the first place!

For what its worth, I ended up buying the Audio Technica clone of the 1200,
because it's great to spin 45's and 78's.  the headshell makes it really easy
to swap from a regular cart to a mono cart for 78s.  I use a pair of Grados
so I don't have to make any arm adjustments and it works great!

I get a lot of great ideas from the people at AC and have been turned on to
a lot of interesting products that I might not have found, so it's all good
as far as I'm concerned....

[Toka]

I get a lot of great ideas from the people at AC and have been turned on to
a lot of interesting products that I might not have found, so it's all good
as far as I'm concerned....

Same here! This is my favorite audio site for that (one of a few, really) reasons.

And just for the record, I've never heard an SME 30/2 with a Graham Phantom arm, so for all I know I wouldn't like it any better...but, just to make sure, I will reluctantly try one out for a few months just to be sure.  Anyone have an extra lying around?