[Zero]

 “everyone is an expert”.

This is a problem that faces every community, be it audio, photography, cars, computers, etc. In each of these gateways hides people who, with self appointed knowledge, sit atop this idea that they have been endowed with great insight regarding all things audio (or interest of choice). These people “know” just exactly what an ideal room should be, they “know” exactly how to treat every transducer on the planet, they “know” what electronics go with it and even “know” the best tweaks for getting the most from a system. Ignoring these individuals can be difficult because they have a bug far enough up their keester to where it rests comfortably on their vocal cords which cannot and will not remain silent.

The bottom line is that there are next to no absolutes in the subjective world of hi-fi audio. While I feel everyone has a right to take a peak into a reviewers lairs to see where all the listening and evaluating magic happens – it is far too easy to glance at a picture and then sit back from afar and critique what you see from the comfort of your own chair. I say all of this specifically in reference to acoustics.

On one hand, it is wonderful to see such heightened awareness in regards to the importance of taming those acoustic nastys going on in your listening space. But how can you, baring obvious circumstances, can you claim to know – let alone judge a persons room before even stepping foot inside it? Perhaps a person lacks acoustic treatments because they found treatments to be more detrimental than helpful. Does that sound crazy? Well allow me to stand up and say “hello – I’m one of em’”.  At this point I have treatments from Eighth Nerve and GIK Acoustics, and while they are fine products – I’ll let you in on a little secret… they actually made my untreated room sound worse. Yep! That’s right – worse! They effectively deadened the sound to the point of it being uninteresting. Is that saying anything against the products? Absolutely not. But it just so happened that my small listening space, as un-ideal as it may appear in picture, sounds pretty damned good all by it’s lonesome. Well, I guess I just effectively shot my credibility (was there any to begin with?) to the floor! While not my intention – these comments are meant to illustrate that looks can be deceiving, and judging something without really experiencing it for yourself is well – just plain not-smart!

[Zero]

Here is another viewpoint. When I started reviewing, it was very difficult to secure review pieces, even the low cost ones. Nels who? You write for who?  We will call you back. Some did- most didn't. Some agreed to a review, and the sample never arrived. Now, I can pretty much get whatever, within reason. Currently in house is approximately $14,000 worth of gear, that is getting boxed up and shipped back- not because I don't like it, but because you can't buy everything.

With your $10,000 speaker example, it doesn't mean the reviewer has limited experience with speakers at that price range, it could mean that no manufacturer offered (or sent)  speakers in that range before. Just because the reviewer hasn't written about $10,000 speakers doesn't mean he has limited experience with them.  That is an assumption.

Nels,

Re-reading my comments, I realize that I left some of them a bit open ended. To clarify;

My comment was not meant to reference whether or not a reviewer has written about a $10,000 set of speakers. Instead, it was stating that someone who has no first hand experience even listening to products in that tier has absolutely no business writing a full-fledge article on such a product - even if they get their hands on one. Instead, they should stick with something more within their field of expertise.

As an aside; I feel the pain. I too wish I could keep it all. Rooms full of audio toys, what more could a audio geek want?

[Zero]

While I am hogging up space and bandwidth in this thread – I will also state that I truly do understand the valid concerns readers have in regards to professional reviewers listening rooms and habits. The ugly truth of the matter is that most of the pros run their systems in less than ideal rooms. On one side, you could say their results are more likely to mimic what the average consumer would encounter under real world conditions. Yet on the flip side, you have to stop and ask if that reviewer really gained a solid understanding of what a product was capable of due to the limitations of their room. Very, very few people have the luxury of owning designated audio rooms which center around the concept of an ideal acoustic space. Even fewer have the real-estate available to create multiple rooms to really run the full gamut of testing.

Audio is truly a labor of love – and aside from the a few fringe benefits here and there, reviewing components typically has the smallest return. I, like most others, am simply a volunteer. Spending my time writing about these components doesn’t pay the bills nor does it keep food on the table. Nearly all reviewers, even the pros – have regular jobs for that. Reviewers also have a tough oar to row when it comes to finding the time to listen, checking out electronics in various configurations in effort to discover a products strengths and limitations – along with having to build credibility. With the exception of those who are independently wealthy, this becomes an incredibly difficult task. So if you are the kind of person that will only take a reviewer seriously if they have the big expensive room, etc – than please –start a donation drive and start sending us the money so we can appease you! I’m not above accepting donations!   

[Ethan Winer]

And how about the reviews of room treatments where it turns out the reviewer simply has none to begin with?   

Yep, that too. It kills me when a review talks about a loudspeaker's imaging and sound stage, then you read the little "associated equipment" box and see tweaks and pebbles ad nauseum listed and not an absorber panel in sight. Earth to Reviewer: If you don't have at least the first reflection points treated in your room, you don't even know what imaging is!

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

So if you are the kind of person that will only take a reviewer seriously if they have the big expensive room, etc – than please –start a donation drive and start sending us the money so we can appease you! I’m not above accepting donations!   

My check is in the mail.

Seriously, you don't need a big expensive room. You don't even need expensive gear or speakers. The price to performance ratio has risen astronomically over the past five years. Worse, a lot of the really expensive stuff is crap IMO. I heard a pair of $25k speakers at a big audio show a few years ago. These speakers were noticeably worse than Behringer Truth speakers sold for $80 each to teenagers with home recording studios. I'm not exaggerating!

Your profile lists no location, but if you're anywhere near me in western Connecticut you're most welcome to stop by for a demo of my approach to this stuff.

--Ethan

[ctviggen]

“everyone is an expert”.

This is a problem that faces every community, be it audio, photography, cars, computers, etc. In each of these gateways hides people who, with self appointed knowledge, sit atop this idea that they have been endowed with great insight regarding all things audio (or interest of choice). These people “know” just exactly what an ideal room should be, they “know” exactly how to treat every transducer on the planet, they “know” what electronics go with it and even “know” the best tweaks for getting the most from a system. Ignoring these individuals can be difficult because they have a bug far enough up their keester to where it rests comfortably on their vocal cords which cannot and will not remain silent.

The bottom line is that there are next to no absolutes in the subjective world of hi-fi audio. While I feel everyone has a right to take a peak into a reviewers lairs to see where all the listening and evaluating magic happens – it is far too easy to glance at a picture and then sit back from afar and critique what you see from the comfort of your own chair. I say all of this specifically in reference to acoustics.

On one hand, it is wonderful to see such heightened awareness in regards to the importance of taming those acoustic nastys going on in your listening space. But how can you, baring obvious circumstances, can you claim to know – let alone judge a persons room before even stepping foot inside it? Perhaps a person lacks acoustic treatments because they found treatments to be more detrimental than helpful. Does that sound crazy? Well allow me to stand up and say “hello – I’m one of em’”.  At this point I have treatments from Eighth Nerve and GIK Acoustics, and while they are fine products – I’ll let you in on a little secret… they actually made my untreated room sound worse. Yep! That’s right – worse! They effectively deadened the sound to the point of it being uninteresting. Is that saying anything against the products? Absolutely not. But it just so happened that my small listening space, as un-ideal as it may appear in picture, sounds pretty damned good all by it’s lonesome. Well, I guess I just effectively shot my credibility (was there any to begin with?) to the floor! While not my intention – these comments are meant to illustrate that looks can be deceiving, and judging something without really experiencing it for yourself is well – just plain not-smart!

If you think that the treatments make the sound "worse", then you probably like boomy bass and overblown midrange.  I've had a problem where I don't think the sound is as impactful as it could be, but I think that's because I had a massive peak that now isn't as massive.  I liken this effect to D65 on TVs.  Once you see a calibrated TV and get used to it, you can't go back to bad greyscale and bleedingly bright reds.  Similarly, once you realize that you're listening to more even frequency response and less reverberation/modal ringing, it's hard to go back to an empty room.  For instance, my second system is in a living room with no treatments.  The bass in that room sounds terrible. 

I highly recommend giving the traps another try.  Critically listen with them then take them out and critically listen.  List for how long notes last and how "boomy" they appear to be.  I'd personally be shocked if you chose an empty room over a room with traps (save perhaps if you have open baffle speakers).

[miklorsmith]

That's another excellent point, familiarity with what you listen to...  If you are constantly flipping gear in a reference system, it's hard(if not impossible) for it to be a reference.

Crosshairs, right between the eyes.  This is a big reviewer's challenge for sure.

[Zero]

Ethan,

Man, I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, a number of manufacturers do not necessarily feel the same way.  There comes a point to where you’re going to have to own something well known, reputable, and rather expensive in order to be green lighted for the next tier of products. Having that separate dedicated room is also a major bonus. Jeff (Tonepub) is one of the very few guys out there that has gone to this level. I have to take my hat off as that’s where I’d like to be one day.

As an aside; thanks for the invite. I am always ready to get my ear on new toys and meeting new people! 

Viggen,

If you think that the treatments make the sound "worse", then you probably like boomy bass and overblown midrange.

It is this type of commentary that inspired the above comments. Without you knowing what my listening space looks like - let alone never having stepped a foot inside of it - how do you *know* without a shadow of a doubt that there is overblown (at least to a damning degree) mid-range and bass? What about the high end? Do you know how large my listening space is? Do you know how much naturally dampening furniture I have in the room and where it’s placed? Do you know the speakers I use? Are you familiar with their dispersion patterns? Do you know how they are set up as it pertains to the room and my listening position? You see where I am going with this.

Please know that I am not calling you out. In fact, you re-enforce a point that’s been made here a few times in this thread; familiarity. While my listening space is far from ideal and carries with it many limitations – it can sound pretty good by itself without acoustic band-aides. And for the record, the panels had virtually a zero audible effect on the bass and mid-range. Instead, it was more related to the high-end. As it turns out, I just like a livelier presentation.

Conversely, I’ve helped install treatments in other listening rooms and encountered significant audible improvements (backed up by confirmed measured results). I make no attempts to denounce the importance of room treatments. In fact, I’d go so far as to say the majority of your standard listening spaces could benefit from well placed treatments. However, like most other things in this hobby – there are no absolutes and occasionally a situation occurs to where treatments may not always yield a positive effect.

For the record; I’ve kept the treatments.

[Ethan Winer]

Unfortunately, a number of manufacturers do not necessarily feel the same way.

That's easy - they're wrong.

Without you knowing what my listening space looks like - let alone never having stepped a foot inside of it - how do you *know* without a shadow of a doubt that there is overblown (at least to a damning degree) mid-range and bass? What about the high end? Do you know how large my listening space is?

I followed the link to your photos, but all your gear is posed outside! D'oh!

So please post some photos - then I can comment more knowledgeably.

I will say I've never seen a room that didn't need bass traps and first reflection treatment.

--Ethan

[Zero]

Ethan,

I'll have the digi cam back later this evening - I'll get some pictures up then! Now I'm going feel more under the gun to remodel the space a bit, damned feng shui

[CSI]

Great thread! Two comments based on (my own) lifetime of listening. Room treatments: Doesn't it strike everyone that this is the only area of audio where objective and subjective listeners have no real argument with each other? Room treatments are always quite audible and easily measurable. Having said that, it is also true that they can be counterproductive. You can make your space too dead, for example or suck out too much bass. This is where some professional help comes in handy. I'd also point out, in defense of those reviewers who ignore the whole issue, that room treatments don't just treat the room. They treat the way a specific set of speakers sound in that room. Therefore, when you change the speakers the old room treatment may be too much or too little for the new ones. Dealing with this issue is likely too much trouble for most reviewers. But any consumer who thinks they are getting the best sound from their system without treating the room will be in for a very pleasant surprise when they invest in even small improvements (start with a pair of GIK panels, for example).
Second comment: Good vs. bad reviewers. When I was in high school I discovered Jazz (we used to call it "Modern" Jazz) and begin buying LPs like a madman. Unfortunately, it was impossible to audition very many of them in advance so I read reviews (mostly in Downbeat). The best advice I ever got? Find one or two reviewers who have the same general tastes that you have, then go listen to the stuff they think is good. It works pretty well for music and for equipment as well. Since we all read reviews for entertainment (probably more than for guidance) it helps if they can actually write. For me, the two best from the (print based) commercial world are Wes Phillips and Art Dudley- although I read Dudley mostly because he seems like an interesting guy who understands the English language.

[Housteau]

they actually made my untreated room sound worse. Yep! That’s right – worse!

I consider the room and speaker / listener positions within that room to be the first major component of any good sound system.  That places the benchmark sonic signature on all of the other components.  It really pays to get that as correct as possible.  I am fortunate to have a nice dedicated listening space (my links are below).  The dimensions were good acoustically to start with, but that was not enough.  However, it took me a while to realize that. 

Earlier I followed a friends advise on rooms and he was more into the minimalistic crowd on treatments.  But, I have to admit that just about everything in his room always sounded, and continues to sound fantastic.  Our rooms are very close in dimensions, with mine being slightly larger.  However, I could never achieve what I felt my systems were capable of until I studied acoustics on my own and sought help from forums such as the Acoustics forum here on AC.  Ethan was very helpful with my questions and as an end result I now have a room closer to being fully and properly treated.  The measurements were impressive, but the change in the entire sonic spectrum was more dramatic than that.

In the beginning I made a few mistakes and sucked the life out of the room.  That is because I was confusing the mix of bass and higher frequency controls.  My room now has a mix of controls for the right balance of broadband bass absorption, along with high frequency absorption, diffusion and diffraction.

I can see how one possibly might feel at first that their room sounded better without such treatments, especially if the wrong ones were set up in the wrong places.   But, when the mechanics are correct, there is no going back.

[TONEPUB]

Excellent point on finding reveiwers you like and share your tastes.

Honestly, that's the only way we can be of any use to any of you.

I do the same thing with everything else I read about, from wine
to camcorders!

[mcullinan]

The Real question is Can you trust a guy whose name is Art Dudley? He sounds like some kind of KGB throwback from the 60s...
Of course I am kidding. aa

[TONEPUB]

seemed like a nice guy when I met him at CES....

[TONEPUB]

I will say I've never seen a room that didn't need bass traps and first reflection treatment.

--Ethan

Ethan:

Boy, I'm with you on that one.  Even though I didn't use your bass traps (sorry about that, I didn't know
you then!) I can honestly say that installing them was the biggest single improvement for the money
I've ever made to my system!

I'm using some first reflection treatments and a fair amount behind my speakers as well.
I have Martin Logans, so there's that back reflection to deal with.  I spent a weekend adjusting,
going from not enough, through too much to where I am now.  I have a good freind that is an
audiologist stop by too and she said she felt that I had a nice balance of damping without going
too far....

Again, spending a modest amount of money and some time adjusting has completely
transformed my system.  Fortunately, when I built my studio, I had the luxury of
a 13 inch thick concrete slab and when we did the drywall, I had it all glued and screwed
(because I did it myself) instead of just putting it up with a nail gun.  All of those little things
really added to a more coherent sound.

I really wish we could convince our readers more that this is the place to start and to
forget about the fancy wires and other tweeks till the room is sounding good!

Plus, once you get the room right, it's a lot easier to hear the other improvements!!

[Zero]

Hell - all I want is a room built from scratch.  Is that too much to ask!? 

[Daygloworange]

Ethan,


While my listening space is far from ideal and carries with it many limitations – it can sound pretty good by itself without acoustic band-aides. And for the record, the panels had virtually a zero audible effect on the bass and mid-range. Instead, it was more related to the high-end. As it turns out, I just like a livelier presentation.

Room treatments are hardly band aids. I hope you didn't mean it that way. More like plastic surgery to minimze room ugliness.
I've had room treatments of one kind or another for close to twenty years, mostly Sonex type foam panels and small ASC quarter round corner tube traps.(I don't use the Sonex Type stuff as main panels anymore) It wasn't until I started building some RPG style diffusors and adding serious fiberglass corner tube traps that the difference got seriously better.

About a year and a half ago, I updated my studio to 24bit digital recorder, and updated my digital samplers. I decided to re-record some dry, and ambient drum shots to update my sample library. The dry shots were recorded on location at my brother's home. He has a Yamaha Power Recording Custom drumkit (not my favorite, I prefer maple drums). We set up for spot miking, and some ambient miking. The room is approx 18' x 11' with 8' ceiling height. The room is fully surrounded with 4'x4' x3" thick acoustic office partitions that are made of rigid fiberglass and covered in Guild of Maine fabric. While recording the shots we decided to experiment by taking out 2 or 3 of the 8 or so panels, and record it. The difference was noticeable to the ear, but to the ambient room microphones it was huge! The drums went from having a warm full sound, to sounding almost like we were banging on trash can lids. It was intolerably noisy sounding. No amount of Eq could fix it. It was a real eye opener for the effects of acoustics in smaller rooms.

Since upgrading my 2 channel audio to it's current level, the area that I will focus on most over the next year or so will be in the area of room acoustics. As far as I'm concerned, I would rather spend time and money on acoustic treatments, and software and hardware to measure room responses, than on periperals such as power cords and IC's and SC's. Just my 2 cents.  

Cheers

[Zero]

CSI - Excellent post. I particularly like the point you brought up that is nearly always over-looked whenever discussions of room treatment pop up ; how individual speakers respond to acoustic damping. It needs to be repeated more often!

Housteau -

I consider the room and speaker / listener positions within that room to be the first major component of any good sound system.  That places the benchmark sonic signature on all of the other components.  It really pays to get that as correct as possible.  I am fortunate to have a nice dedicated listening space (my links are below).  The dimensions were good acoustically to start with, but that was not enough

Agreed with all of the above. As an aside, I took a gander at your system and enjoyed the tour.

Daygloworange -  Acoustic Band-Aides, in "zero" speak simply implies a fix or remedy to something that requires attention or needs fixin'. If I had my way (money and the-real estate), I would do a complete face-lift and create a room specifically for audio. For now, I'll have to keep saving my pennies. I guess that means those pricey power cords and 'wooden knobs' will have to wait even longer. 

edit: Ethan - will be sending a PM

[TONEPUB]

Housteau - very nice room!!!