[DanTheMan]

I was just wondering how the various construction techniques involved in InterConnects effects their sound.  ie:twisted pairs, XLO, straight line side-by-side, AWG and condustor material as well.  I think it would benefit people looking for the final tweak.

Thanks!

Dan

[jb]

I was just wondering how the various construction techniques involved in InterConnects effects their sound.  ie:twisted pairs, XLO, straight line side-by-side, AWG and condustor material as well.  I think it would benefit people looking for the final tweak.

I’ve made dozens of ICs over the years and I can assure you the construction technique, AWG, conductor and dielectric material make a big difference in their sound, but only a fool would think he could tell you how any particular IC construction or material would sound to you in the context of your system.

I’ve made most of the popular DIY recipies using copper and silver, from 46 to 24 awg, wire and foil, wrapped, coiled, and twisted in various ways. Currently I’m using 33 awg copper litz wire, either woven within a polypropylene braid or threaded through Teflon tubing platted in a 4-part sinnet and terminated with Eichman copper bullets. However, I’m sill experimenting and I am thinking about trying some 50 awg platinum electrode wire. The 46 awg copper was very difficult to work with; 50 awg will be a real challenge. DIY is all about doing it yourself.

[navi]

every cable i've heard has had it's own flavour. It's hard to say which is right or perfect. it all depends on what you like...... I like 26 or 24ga. silver in cotton.

... However, I’m sill experimenting and I am thinking about trying some 50 awg platinum electrode wire. The 46 awg copper was very difficult to work with; 50 awg will be a real challenge. DIY is all about doing it yourself.

let us know how the 50ga. wire interconnects go. I've tried using 46ga. wire and I don't recommend it- the reason being is once you cut the wire and accidently drop it on the floor- you will never find it--- it's finer than hair

Ivan

[1000a]

30ga is a PITA for me 50 would be pure Rocket Science

let us know how it sounds

[Steve]

Thought I would throw in that the termination is extremely critical as well.

[DanTheMan]

every cable I've heard has had it's own flavour.

I was wondering how the different styles of cables sounded relative to each other.  This is my ultimate goal with this experimentation.  That way people can have an idea of where to go with their cables depending on how they feel about their sound now.


 just made an XLO format IC(one X every 2cm) with CAT5e with some very cheap radio shack solderless RCA cables and compared then w/o break in vs. some old Japanese cables from the 70s or 80s that Bob(in SL) sent me and some Monster cable that I bought a couple of years ago(it was their 2ND best IC in 2001, not sure how it would compare by today's MC). Anyway, to make a long story short, I got a cassette, popped it into Q's(forum member) old deck, connected it with my cable to my mixer and hooked up my Gr ado SR60s. I listened twice to the whole side, then connected Bob's(in SL)s old Japanese cable(which I've been using everyday for months on my tapedecks) and listened to the whole side once, and then put in the Monster cable for about a minute, and returned to listening to my homemade XLO. Without question the XLO is the handsdown winner for clarity, speed, and detail although it is a too bright. Bob's old cable is the most neutral sounding tonally, but sounds more boxed in, less detailed and lacks dynamics when compared to the XLO CAT5e. By far the worst cable is the Monster Cable, but it is the loudest(volume setting never changed). It sounds more boxed in than Bob's old cable but does present the deepest bass and the highest treble. It's strange though, the treble sounds kind of disconnected to the upper midrange. Almost like there is a dip in the frequency response. I had figured this was going to be the best sounding cable since it costs so much and is by far the nicest looking. The connector plugs look really heavy duty and have fancy cuts in the (-) ring and a split center pin. Maybe one of my components just doesn't like the cable, but that's the way they sounded in my stuff. BTW I use the MC for my DVD/CD/SACD player and it sees use everyday. Next I'm going to make a braided CAT5e and a twisted pair CAT5e with the same solderless connectors.  I wonder how much difference good connectors will make.  I have some on there way from HomeGrown Audio but I really want to use these solderless ones until I find cables that work well.  My only fear is that good connectors will change the sound so much that all this experimentation will be for nil.  Does anyone know any hard and fast rules for how good connectors will change the sound?

Thanks for the replies, I've posted this on a few boards with no responses.  This is a subject I really want to know more about and I appreciate your time and effort in helping me achieve this.

Dan

Oh yea, I made these changes yesterday and I've put about 5 hours on the XLO since then.  They are sounding better now--more balanced.  And they are wrapped around a 100% cotton shoestring with no outer covering.  Are there somethings I can do to improve this design?  How many hours should I put on this design before they are considered burnt in?  Should I use these exact wires in my braided pair to get a more precise comparisen?  I hate waiting on cables to burn in.............I've got time to experiment right now, but I need to burn the wires in!  Guess I better start playing some music.

Thanks again!
Dan

[DanTheMan]

OK, I just came up with my plan.  I'm going to play these XLO ICs in my system for the next month--by then they should be well burned in.  Then I'm going to deconstruct them and make them into a braided pair with double ground and play them for a few weeks.  The final stage will be to take the original CAT5e twisted pairs and use then connected to these same connectors.  I will use these things in all my gear and compare them with the old Japanese cable and the MonsterCable.  After I find the design I like the most(I'll be writting notes on the strengths and weaknesses of each design), I'll return my to the configuration I like the most and solder to the HGAudio connectors.  This will invariably change the sound.  If I don't like it as much, I'll use the strengths and weaknesses notes I've made on the cables to decide how to change the design.  I'll make the other cable and connect it to the same piece of gear that prompted the change and keep working until I've got all my gear happy.

Are there any geometries you would like me to try?  Be patient though, this is a long process it would seem.  Maybe I should just go and get some more of these cheap solderless connectors.  Does anyone have a better way to do this RCA plug swapping?   I'm giving myself a headache with all this thought.

Let me know your thoughts,
Dan

[gooberdude]

Hey Dan,

i had no clue you were on this forum...

I've been tinkering with soldering the last few weeks and got around to replacing the stock RCA's on a decent Ipod cable i bought from Ultimate Cables.      I will only use Eichmann Bullett plugs in my set-up, so i removed a set from a pair of horrid sounding Heartland Cable IC's and placed them on the Ipod cable.     I'm familiar with how Bullett's perform, but had never done anything like this.

the results are wild, a greatly reduced noise floor and then everything else popping out in sweet glory..  Heavy, metal, bulky RCA's destroy the good flow of electrons, plain & simple...     My Imod took a giant leap in performance in other words.

You might try something other than CAT5e...like decent copper cabling.   And get a set of Bullett's...they are inexpensive & easy to solder if you're weary of the plastic ends.

I don't have thou$and$ into cabling or anything, but do think that every millimeter of the cabling and RCA's and plugs and all that are absolutely crucial to getting good performance.  One crappy rca or length of cable & you've created a blockage...  Copping out on cabling (cat5e) and RCA's and whatever will never 'get you there'...though it might get you close.    

All it takes to figure this out is going out on a limb and experiementing though, which you are well on your way no doubt.  Steer clear of Monster cable, try other nice copper cabling, and look into some Bullet plugs.      This might be an odd suggestion too, but you might buy a nice IC (or demo a set from a local shop) so that you have a baseline.    i have a few pairs of Anti-IC's with Bullet plugs, but there are hoards of other good cable makes around too.

Chris Venhaus, of Venhaus audio, is a great resource for hi-end DIY cables....you might drop him an e-mail too.

A simple experiment:  make 2 identical cables but with difft RCA's & compare.   Later on swap out the cabling for a difft type & compare.  and so on...

At this point just swapping out the RCA's you are using for some nicer ones might be a real eye opener that would lead to other discoveries...    These 'discoveries' are a slippery slope though.  If you make a really good cable, it might tell you that your source or amp or preamp is subpar.    that's only happened to me a dozen time$!!!!


mattc

[DanTheMan]

At this point just swapping out the RCA's you are using for some nicer ones might be a real eye opener that would lead to other discoveries...    These 'discoveries' are a slippery slope though.  If you make a really good cable, it might tell you that your source or amp or preamp is subpar.    that's only happened to me a dozen time$!!!!

I am afraid of this.  That's why I'm trying not to go too good and I have the CAT5e wire that has been in my closet for years.  It's never been used.  It came with a modem we bought in Japan, but I already had a shorter cable that better suited my needs.  The Eichman's are only $40/cable.  That's not too bad at all for the quality of them.

So Matt, I'm nervous about soldering and unsoldering plugs.  I don't want destroy my ability to get a metal to metal contact further on down the road.  Can you get say 95% of the solder back out of the center pin?

Oh yea, what the advantage of smaller wire?  I mean 50 AWG, it seems this would add a lot of resistance.  Is resistance good for ICs?
Thanks man!
Dan

BTW, I didn't know you were here. Good to see you!

[gooberdude]

take this with a grain of salt Dan...i've soldered exactly 4 RCA's and 2 speaker binding posts in my life 

I desoldered 2 Bullett plugs from a single Heartland cable IC and soldered them onto this Ipod cable of mine with no problem.   old solder is easy enough to get flowing.  i have a shitty desoldering bulb and no desoldering wick or anything..this is my next Parts express order, about $12 worth of de-soldering tools.    they have a $4 pump and the wick material that, i think, are really needed to get going.

the basic answer to your Q about removing solder from the center pin is "yes, yes indeed its easy and possible'    others with way more experience than i might differ though!      i found soldering pretty easy - thanks to Ray Bronk, though i'm not doing it 100% correct.   that is gonna take time and practice...much respect for those who can.

Don't fret over getting 'too good' of sound!    you are a diy'er and will stay that way, but since you're in this hobby make the best of it & use the best materials you want to afford.  Bullett plugs are a great way to do this...in my experience they don't hurt the signal whereas cheap-o rca's certainly do.

IF you go with Bullett's, make sure you have a good heat sink.   i forgot to clamp mine onto the Neg post on a Bullett plug and the teflon got a little soupy, the neg pin shifted slightly.    Getting a handle on draining off heat so it doesn't melt the insulation, PCB's is crucial for me at this point...i progbably run a hotter iron than is needed...a bit impatient.    To do Bullett's, i attached the heat sink directly onto the tab i'm soldering, but a bit out of the way to allow for working room.  my heatsink is one of the clips that is sold with a beginner's soldering kit.  PE has 'em for $4 or so.

use the Cat5e for practice, then get real in a month or 2.    i never used the stuff for IC's but found it dreadful as speaker cable.  very 2-D and bland, closed in.     all my soldering practice has been with CAT5 though.     i ran into problems inside my amp trying to solder 12 gauge stranded to the Cablepods...that's a hassle.   tiny solid core is much easier.

have fun!!

[DanTheMan]

use the Cat5e for practice, then get real in a month or 2.    i never used the stuff for IC's but found it dreadful as speaker cable.  very 2-D and bland, closed in.     all my soldering practice has been with CAT5 though.     i ran into problems inside my amp trying to solder 12 gauge stranded to the Cablepods...that's a hassle.   tiny solid core is much easier.

It's actually opened up my soundstage compared to the Monster Cable, but I bet you are totally correct.   If you're gonna do it, it may as well be right.  I'm going to practice for a while and get a good handle on what I want to do, then I'll get some bullets and some good wire.  Got any recommendations for wire?

Thanks again!
Dan

[DanTheMan]

So, I got my locking RCA plugs from HGA yesterday and made up some XLO CAT5e cables again just to see what difference, if any, there would be compared to my RatShack solderless plugs. All I can really say at this point is WOW! A $15 set of ICs can sound amazing. It's no longer a question of if the beat a monstercable or an RCA brand cable, it's how do they compare with the AudioQuest. So far things are looking good. I'm going to let them burn in a bit before I make any serious comparisons, but they are certainly in that level now. The AudioQuest are solid copper wire.

brief observation:I don't believe that XLO or CAT5e is inheritantly bright anymore. Perhaps cheap, solderless, RadioShack RCA plugs are. Just crisp, clean and open sound from these things so far.

Next on the build list is a twisted pair and a three cord braid like Kimber Cable.

BTW for the center of the XLO I used a cotton shoestring and for the outside covering I used a woven tweed German-made shoestring that looks sweet. These cable look like high dollar ones as well as sound like'em.

Replies welcome.

Dan

[DanTheMan]

I made a twisted pair CAT5e Incs tonight.  Initial impressions are dramatically different that XLO.  These are very, very Basie ICS!  Grant it, these wires are still virgins so break in may change this.  It's the same result that I got when I put them on my TT.

Latest Impressions/Thoughts:  Inductance and capacitance work differently in cables than my intuition led me to believe.  (this may bring some fire, but who knows) When you place a capacitor in series with a speaker it cuts the bass out of a speaker.  When you place an inductor in series with a speaker, it reduces treble.  XLO wires keep capacitance to a minimum and yet have lower bass output than a twisted pair which reduces inductance.  I've experienced the same now on my speaker cables.  When I twisted my braids, it tamed the treble.  Interesting that in my experience that what has happened was the opposite of what I thought would happen.  So Bob, maybe the way you have your cables may actually lead to greatest extension .  It seems that what made my treble go so much higher was actually the reduced capacitance of separating the poss and neg run .  It's probably more complex than that.  Can anyone explain what is going on here? 

Maybe these qualities could really be useful to you active crossover guys?

Wires are actually powerful tone tools.  More dramatic than I thought.  It seems the better connectors make a giant improvement in all areas of sound.  Maybe there is something to synergy--e.g.Got a bright sound, change to a twisted pair, too warm, try XLO.  If my previous experience holds true, got an already neutral system, go with braided.  As I stated, there may be more involved here, but this is my experience so far. Also, I'm running mono so I can't comment on soundstage except when I'm using my headphones.  Through my headphones, both beat out my MonsterCable in soundstage.  Music just sound bigger through them both.
Coming soon, the braided pair.

Dan

[DanTheMan]

Steve Eddy wrote:

Capacitive reactance (again in Ohms) is a shunt element in a cable and is calculated as the the reciprocal of the equation for inductive reactance, or 1 / (2 x pi x f x C) where C is capacitance in Farads.

Al Sekela wrote:

Cable capacitance is in parallel with the load. You are correct that a series capacitor will attenuate the bass, but the cable capacitance cannot do this. What it can do is attenuate the treble if it is large compared to the source output impedance (in the case of interconnect cables with some line stage designs such as BAT), or drive power amps into oscillation (in the case of some speaker cables together with some power amps).

This agrees with what I am finding.

Now onto my braided ICs. I built them last night. In both my headphone and my SI they fall sonically imbetween the XLO and the twisted pair. Less bass than the twisted pair but more treble, and less treble than the XLO but more bass. These are made of mostly virgin wire yet, but since they are all mostly virgin the comparison still holds true. I can't determine which I like best yet as they all have their own strengths, but all are much clearer than any of my previously owned cables not to mention better looking. Too bad they'll never be seen.  Fortunately they will be heard.  In fact, they are being heard as I type(the XLO anyway).

I untwisted the speaker cables going to the tweeter last night, and today I've got more treble again. My guess is that the PVC insulation has a high capacitance on it's own and doesn't like being placed together where it will have it's capacitance increased again. If you are using lamp cord, I'd try to simply pull them apart and see if you don't notice and increase in treble. To get your cabling right, there is a balance between LR and C. e.g. if you've got a PVC jacket, don't raise your capacitance anymore. So there is probably a balance between materials and typology. That's why there are so many high end cables that cost buku bucks and have completely different typologies. My CAT5e have a more plastic feeling insulation that the PVC jacket on my speaker cable, but still results in the same changes when you change the geometry relative to itself. Finding what works in your system without spending any real cash is just a matter of playing with these different cable geometries. My bet would be that in nearly all cases, a little better sound could be had with the wiring you already have in place with a different geometry to acheive a better balance, or more bass, or more treble etc.... Unless you find your system perfect now and couldn't be improved in any way. In my system there has been an incredible transformation just with changing a few things around. Now that we know how these different typologies sound in relation to one another.........hey, it's summertime and tweaking is easy!

Hopefully there is someone out there who will benefit from all this work I've done. So please save your money and experiment with what you've got.

Dan