[Airborn]

Ok, familiar story.  I'm getting back into vinyl after 20+ years because of dissatisfaction with digital, particularly cds.  I have 600+ cds but only 200 LPs, most of those rock/heavy metal from high school.  So I bought a cheap Audio Technica AT-PL50 TT ($100) with AT 3600 cart ($29) just to see if I liked vinyl.  With mods by LP Gear and some plasticlay added, I liked it enough that I bought the Cambridge Audio 640p Phono Stage, which improved the performance alot.  Next, I acquired a mint Dual 601 TT with a barely used Shure V15 III cart.  I know Dual doesn't get much respect around the forums, but I have read the 601 is considered one of Dual's best belt drive TT and it sounds pretty good to me.  Associated equipment is Onix SP3 tube intergrated and Strata Mini speakers.  Listening room is 15x20x9 family room w/o room treatments, which are not an option.  I listen to all types of music, but mainly rock, blues and jazz.  Total Budget is around $500, what should I upgrade first, TT, cart or phono stage?   

PS-I am already considering the KAB Technics SL 1200 or a Graham Slee Amp 2 SE, both of which I have heard (not in my system) and thought sounded great.  I am also thinking the AT 440 MLa cart that gets all the raves should be the first upgrade.  But what do the vinyl experts here think will give the greatest return?(please don't say buy more LPs and room treatments as I am doing one and can't do the other).

[WEEZ]

IMO, if your Dual is 'mint' as you say; and the V15 has few hours...I'd say you are good for a while. 

I'm not familiar with the Cambridge phono amp, so I can't really comment. But you likely have a synergy going on right now...and I'd say you done good

The AT cartridge will sound more 'vivid' than your Shure, so bear that in mind. Unless that $500 is really burning a hole in your pocket...I'd save it and wait 'till you can add to the funds and do a more major upgrade in a year or two.

My 2 cents..

WEEZ

[TheChairGuy]

yup - enjoy what you have now.  It's still gonna' be more musical than likely any CD set-up.

Much the same story here - went about 4 years without a TT and have never enjoyed music less in my life. 

Good job on the Plast-i-Clay...the stuff really can turn a sow's ear into something more useful 

[macrojack]

Chair Guy - You're promise of turning a sow's ear into something more useful will likely compromise the sow's music enjoyment. Surely you are not so callous as to endorse that sort of animal cruelty. It has been well documented that pig's enjoy music although I don't know whether any evidence has been accumulated re: their preference between analog and digital.

[gooberdude]

I'd look elsewhere in your system to allow the new analog set-up to sound its best.   AC wall outlets? Power distribution?  interconnect from 640P to your preamp?  possibly some triangle corner room treatments???   

Since you've invested in the gear, installing even a partial acoustics treatment would be $ well spent.

a good friend just purchased a used micro seiki tt, the 640P and the tt has the same v15 mkIII.   Its a killer combo, but adding 4 - 8th nerve Response triangles has ratcheted up the wow factor a lot.

you might want other analog tools like:  digi scale for measuring vtf, protractor for cartridge alignment, record cleaning machine (kab ev-1), record cleaning supplies, new inner & outer sleeves for LP's, Ionoclast, wood platform for TT, Bullett plugs installed on tonearm wires, record puck, platter mat, etc.


that's about $500     

[Psychicanimal]

A cryoéd outlet & cryoéd power cord are the first improvements to be made in your analog rig.

[ohenry]

If I were spending, I'd invest in something that I could enjoy now and use with other turntables at a later date.  I guess that means accessories.  You probably can determine what would make the most sense for your situation.  If it were me, I'd jump on a VPI or Nitty Gritty record cleaner.

[eric the red]

A cryoéd outlet & cryoéd power cord are the first improvements to be made in your analog rig.

Actually, the first step in getting gear to sound better is a simple phone call. See the first page of this thread http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=42378.0 for the link.

[Wayner]

Put a Plast-i-band 2/3's the way up your tonearm and rebalance. Make the band about 1/2" wide and 3/32" thick. If your tonearm is about 3/8" in diameter, cut the band about 1 1/8" long. That will wrap around the tone arm. This is the greatest tweak I have to offer, It really calms the tonearm down which helps the stylus track like a bastard. Also Get the AT440MLa.......right now.

 aa

[lcrim]

My bedroom system has a Dual CS5000 which has the factory low mass tonearm and since you have the V15 I'm guessing that your Dual also has a low mass arm meant for use with a high compliance cartridge like the Shure.  The only example of the V15 I've heard had terrible overtones which spoiled its presentation, leading me to suspect it was damaged.  There is a LOMC Goldring Eroica LX on mine now with an Isoplatmat which raised the bar considerably.
I would suggest to anyone that clean records and a clean stylus on a well set up arm always improves playback.  A good vacuum based record cleaning machine is almost essential once you get into vinyl. I live near Princeton Records and have scored a few treasures there but good quality new vinyl is always very cool.  Its all a waste unless you have some good records to listen to.

[Daverz]

Buy more records.

[TONEPUB]

I guess, I would also vote for perhaps a used Nitty Gritty 1 or 1.5.
You might be able to get one for about 150 and it would help with
your vinyl experience.

Sounds like your table and cart is good so far, again maybe before
you spend more money, see if you can't spend an hour or two really
dialing in the table you have and see if that helps as well.

Good luck on the journey!

[Airborn]

Thanks for all the replies.

It sounds like the consensus is get a record cleaning machine, buy more clean LPs and stick with what I've got.  That seems like good advice that's easy to follow until the upgrade urge hits.  I think I might need therapy since I can't seem to leave the system alone for more than a few weeks.  

The only thing I know I am going to change/upgrade right now is the cartridge.  The Shure V15 III sounds a little recessed and muted; it might be because of age, but I don't know since I have nothing to compare it to since I never heard one before.  This cart came with the Dual 601 TT and although the seller said it had less than 50 hours on it, it might just be too old.  The Dual does have a low mass tone arm, like lcrim suspected, so I am wondering if anyone knows a good cartridge for less than $200 that matches well with a low mass tone arm? I see the Goldring Eroica recommendation, any others?  Would the AT 440 MLa match well with a low mass tone arm?

[WGH]

I thought the high output Goldring Eroica went for a lot more, like $450. I had a high output Alchemist moving coil for a while in my low mass arm and it was not a great match, I could never get it to sing. The Goldring cartridges do not get enough praise. I use the G1042 in my Harmon/Kardon T55C which has a low mass arm, and the synergy is perfect, a very neutral balanced sound. Good jump factor, very nice highs and lows, clean mids it's all there, you can even understand Rickie Lee Jones' lyrics! The G1012 is similar and is in your budget at $199 from: http://stores.ebay.com/William-s-Stylus-Shop_Cartridges

The Goldring 1012 cartridge use a Gyger II stylus, if it is a picky as the 1042 Gyger S stylus then you will have to adjust the VTA to get it to sound right. If the VTA on the Dual is non-adjustable then perhaps an elliptical stylus shape would be best.

I have not heard a Grado, but they are around $60 and I know they work in low mass arms with a little tweaking.

[lazydays]

I think that before I did anything with the table, I'd work on something to isolate the T.T. from external vibrations.
gary

[WEEZ]

Airborn,

The AT cartridge should work well in your arm. It likely WILL sound more vivid than the Shure, that's for sure. (Ha, no pun intended) But like tvad4 says, you might 'play' with the Shure for a while and see if you can get the sound you're after. I don't know if your arm has VTA adjustment capability, or not...but the low mass is fine with Shure and AT.

WEEZ

[Psychicanimal]

Please send me your Shure V15 III.

Thanks.

P/A

[Airborn]

P/A- Sorry, won't be sending you the Shure V15 III.  While mine is the original version with the VN35E Biradial Elliptical stylus, not the micro ridge stylus tvad was discussing, I found he was right on about the VTA.  I slightly raised the arm pillar at the base of the tone arm to adjust the VTA, using the High End Audio VTA Protractor found here http://www.highendaudio.co.za/pdf/vta_protractor.pdf and got marked improvement in the sound.  I also increased the VTF a little more than the 1 gram recommended to the 1.25 gram max and loosened the screws on the headshell mount where they were over-tightend.  Now I find the cartridge sounds much better. It could be my ears "breaking in", but regardless, I think I'll listen to this set up for awhile now. 

Thanks for all the helpful replies.