Amps and VMPS

sbcgroup1 · « **on:** 22 Jun 2007, 12:35 pm »

Hey all (Zybar, CTViggen, EKovalsky,etc)...I haven't been here in a long time since I've been spending all my money on more recording studio gear and home improvements for like the last 1.5 years...lol....I should post some pics:)

1. Anyways, I'm itching to get some über high end amplifiers (probably gonna Audiogon it:)) to replace my first Cinenova for my BCSE RM40's and RM30 center. I know Zybar uses the Rowland 201's (this was a while back...you liked them better than your Pass Labs) and I was looking into those or maybe the Rowland 501's. I am also looking at the McIntosh 501's (mostly because their meters are so cool...lol) but I've heard the Rowlands were a step above (warmer, more character, a little clearer on the highs). I've also read though that there was some Taiwanese company out making basically the same amp using the ICEPOWER stuff that's like 1/4 the price. If that's true, that sux.... How about some of the older, larger Rowland amps like the Model 5's and stuff like that? Or the new 300 series (but I think that's WAY more than I want to spend, etc.)

2. Also, I need to find a more powerful amp to push my BCSE Larger Subwoofer. I've always clipped the amp before I could really push it very hard and now since I have an additional lower frequency sub, it just gets totally lost in the mix. Crown K2? I dunno. When I was at the (former) Roop's place in NYC he had two old 800w NAD's driving the Larger Subs and they blew mine away. Somethings up...

Any input or suggestions would be helpful....thanks!

ps> John- I sent you an email yesterday, etc.

-sbc

ctviggen · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 12:51 pm »

Welcome back. Go ahead and post pics; I always like to see what others are doing. I think I'm the only one who still has VMPS; both George (zybar) and Erik (EKovalsky) have moved on to other speakers. You might want to PM George, as I believe he's had another 10 amps or so in the interim and can give you the low down. I also think he's transitioning (or has transitioned) to tube amps. Oh, the horror!

Actually, I'm using a tube amp on my center channel, and I do think it makes the voices a bit fuller. I like it so much that I'd go tube on the top end of my RM40s, if I could afford it. Sadly, all my money is going to my house and preparation for my first child.

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 01:15 pm »

Bi-Amping doesn't sound like that bad of an idea....

What tube amps have you looked into and how do I match one with my cinenova on the lows?

VTL's are supposed to be the cat's behind but I think those are way beyond what I want to spend and perhaps too powerful (is there such a thing...lol).

Hey, actually deHavillands might be the way to go!? They make awesome preamps....

Anyways, do you re-bias your amps yourself when you change tubes? I play tube amps with my guitar setup in the studio; I have a Mesa/Boogie rack setup. But I know they have a fixed bias and I can just pop tubes in and out. When I had my Marshalls, they needed biasing every time which was annoying but you could increase the plate voltage and run some tubes hotter to get a much sweeter sound out of them. The Boogies run cold but have that magic I enjoy for guitar...

woodsyi · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 01:57 pm »

Tubes on ribbons, ICE on woofers and K2 on subs. It works for me. I happened to have a spare Marchand XM44 3-way just set up to do this. You want to buy it?

I think what Zybar is auditioning, Response Audio Bella 100s would be very good on your ribbons. ICE or UCD amps would be good on your woofers. I don't know about Nuforce although John can fill you in on that. On paper, Nuforce has the highest damping ratio. K2 is fine on subs but you can also retrofit plate amps or get a stand along amp that Brian uses in his powered sub. I believe comes with EQ and low pass filter.

ctviggen · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 02:01 pm »

Right now, I'm using a Nuforce Ref. 9 on one of my Largers. It works well. I like it in this configuration better than driving my center channel -- the Nuforce is too revealing for center channel duties. As for tubes, I'm not sure. I'm not the best person to ask and I think others will have better informed opinions.

Housteau · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 02:55 pm »

Something that I have noticed is that a lot of tube amps sound best when they have some age on them. It may be that the older transformers are just starting to come into their own after 10-20 years. I really don't know what it is, but older gear tends to please more easily. Because of that, I have been a big fan of buying used gear as long as it is coming from a source I can trust. My VTL mono amps just turned 22 I think, and with those EL34s just sound wonderful on midrange and tweeter duty. Audiogon can be a great place to let ones imagination run wild. There you can be exposed to gear from almost literally the beginning of home audio to the tauted latest and greatest.

flintstone · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 04:40 pm »

I've always been a little confused regarding the VMPS subwoofer amp thing?....mine don't eat gobs of power?....as a matter of fact, I drive a pair of the Largers with only an Onkyo M-504 power amp, (the subs rarely draw 100 watts with music).

Just for info:

My subs are pulling duty up to 65hz, my Apogee Duetta Signatures take over from there.

About half the time...the big power needles on the Onkyo only peg 50 watts or so? (my room is 25'x 22'x 9'.....nine bass traps). Why would others require so much power when I require so little?....do you guys have your subs set correctly?

Maybe it's the hometheater thing thats confusing me...different story there! BTW....my hometheater is all VMPS (old school Supertower/R's, 626's, sub).

Dave

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 04:42 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 22 Jun 2007, 01:57 pm

Tubes on ribbons, ICE on woofers and K2 on subs. It works for me. I happened to have a spare Marchand XM44 3-way just set up to do this. You want to buy it? I think what Zybar is auditioning, Response Audio Bella 100s would be very good on your ribbons. ICE or UCD amps would be good on your woofers. I don't know about Nuforce although John can fill you in on that. On paper, Nuforce has the highest damping ratio. K2 is fine on subs but you can also retrofit plate amps or get a stand along amp that Brian uses in his powered sub. I believe comes with EQ and low pass filter.

Sweet...now we're getting somewhere...

As for one of my subs (18" custom job), I am using that recommended Parts Express 600watter plate amp, etc. Sounds good, but build quality is for crap. It's an embarrassment to look at (have it hidden) and I am already getting hum off of the powersupply and have to keep juggling it around to stop the hum (ie. it's not a grounding problem...just crap build quality). Anyways, I remember really questioning it on this board, but it was recommended. Anyways, I guess it's doing it's job...don't need to replace it until it fails, etc. I'm not sure about the damping ratio, but I know it helps to have a high factor, especially on bass.

I'm interested in crossovers, but I'm not there yet until I get extra amps, etc.

So I guess now it's time to research the Response Audio Bella's and the Nuforces....geez I don't even know what they look like yet...lol...

CTViggen/Bob: Is it possible to be "too" revealing on your center channel? How so? (I think we have the same center - RM30...)

Later

-Ed

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 04:51 pm »

Quote from: flintstone on 22 Jun 2007, 04:40 pm

Maybe it's the hometheater thing thats confusing me...different story there! BTW....my hometheater is all VMPS (old school Supertower/R's, 626's, sub).
Dave

What are you using to drive your VMPS subs for HT?

My music sounds ok...I think i may need something to fine tune crossover more...I have it set at 60Hz on my preamp, but I don't think it's low enough... The next step down is 40...I think that's too low, etc. (Using a Sherwood Newcastle P-965 pre).

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 05:06 pm »

Quote from: flintstone on 22 Jun 2007, 04:40 pm

About half the time...the big power needles on the Onkyo only peg 50 watts or so? (my room is 25'x 22'x 9'.....nine bass traps). Why would others require so much power when I require so little?....do you guys have your subs set correctly?

Maybe it's time I learned about acoustic treatments...I know I need them....just confused as to how to blend them into the room...I'll send some pics of the room if/when I get a chance...it's all open on one end, etc. I've heard dedicated theatre rooms that are treated and sound amazing that weren't pushing that many watts, etc. Maybe that's my next step, but I still can't hear my VMPS sub, goddamn-it! lol...

Housteau · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 06:09 pm »

Have you taken a good set of test tone measurements, something more revealing than a simple 1/3 octave analysis? That will tell you if you are close to having everything balanced to your listening position correctly.

Depending upon where your sub is crossed over at, you generally should not 'hear' it at all. You should just feel the impact.

woodsyi · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 06:33 pm »

Down load the test tones 10Hz to 300 Hz from Realtraps http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm and just play it to get an idea of say what a 50Hz tone sounds like. Crank 10 hz and you won't hear anything until things start falling off shelves. Your sound meter will go crazy way before you feel it.

flintstone · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 06:34 pm »

Quote from: sbcgroup1 on 22 Jun 2007, 04:51 pm

Quote from: flintstone on 22 Jun 2007, 04:40 pm
Maybe it's the hometheater thing thats confusing me...different story there! BTW....my hometheater is all VMPS (old school Supertower/R's, 626's, sub).
Dave

What are you using to drive your VMPS subs for HT?

My music sounds ok...I think i may need something to fine tune crossover more...I have it set at 60Hz on my preamp, but I don't think it's low enough... The next step down is 40...I think that's too low, etc. (Using a Sherwood Newcastle P-965 pre).

I'm back to using all Onkyo's in the homtheater for now. I bought the complete VMPS Onkyo system new around 10 years ago...What was at that time "top of the line" Onkyo receiver, a couple of M-504's added for extra measure (and power).

My hometheater system has been a mess for a few years...I tried switching to an "all Apogee" hometheater, with Krell all around....blah, blah, blah, lots of other things tried too.

In the end, I went back to the Vimps....they kick hometheater butt! aa

You can see some of the mess I've gone through in the past, if you click on my system pic's link at the bottom of my post.

Room treatments: Start in the corners (all of them)....first reflection points next.

Dave

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 09:13 pm »

Flintstone: Tell me more about those Rogue amps! They look really nice:) Anyways I went on the deHavilland site and looked at their GM70 that tube size is rediculous! I've never seen anything that big. I understand the concept behind it...more straightforward design, less to go wrong, easier to bias, etc, but I don't know if I would agree with the single tube concept as opposed to a bunch of smaller ones. Anyways, I'm thinkin' in terms of guitar amps....don't know how it applies to hi-fi. Any differences between the 50w deHavilland and the 100w Bella's? Should the power rating even be an issue? Probably not, I'd assume...

Anyways, I'll update the pics in my system profile so you can get a better idea of what my room looks like. I definitely need acoustic treatments to start with.... I remember I emailed Ethan Weiner a while back and he told me just to follow the layout examples on his website, etc. Any brands you like over others? It probably doesn't even matter....I know the Auralex stuff works nice in studios, etc.

RGordonpf · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 10:33 pm »

deHavilland Amps and VMPS Speakers

For what it is worth, I use a pair of deHavilland 845-G monoblocks to drive my RM30Ms. I use the metal plate Shuguang 845 tubes which only put out 24 watts per side. That 24 watts is sufficient to drive my RM30Ms as loud as I want them in my heavily damped room.

Single Ended Triodes and VMPS speakers make a very good combination. The problem is getting SET amps with big enough transformers to drive the current hungry VMPS speakers. The deHavillands are one of the few SET amps that can supply sufficient current.

flintstone · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Jun 2007, 11:28 pm »

Quote from: sbcgroup1 on 22 Jun 2007, 09:13 pm

Flintstone: Tell me more about those Rogue amps! They look really nice:) Anyways I went on the deHavilland site and looked at their GM70 that tube size is rediculous! I've never seen anything that big. I understand the concept behind it...more straightforward design, less to go wrong, easier to bias, etc, but I don't know if I would agree with the single tube concept as opposed to a bunch of smaller ones. Anyways, I'm thinkin' in terms of guitar amps....don't know how it applies to hi-fi. Any differences between the 50w deHavilland and the 100w Bella's? Should the power rating even be an issue? Probably not, I'd assume...

Anyways, I'll update the pics in my system profile so you can get a better idea of what my room looks like. I definitely need acoustic treatments to start with.... I remember I emailed Ethan Weiner a while back and he told me just to follow the layout examples on his website, etc. Any brands you like over others? It probably doesn't even matter....I know the Auralex stuff works nice in studios, etc.

The original intent with the Rogue amps was part of an Apogee speaker "model upgrade"... I had in mind (Duetta Signatures to Apogee Diva), the Rogue amps were intended to drive the Diva midrange and tweeter ribbons...with my Krell Ksa-250 driving the bass panal....biamp.

The Rogue amps are the M-120 Magnums with the upgraded power supply/transformers...very Krell like, in their ability to reproduce bass....with some kick to it... Drums are fast, visceral, and with good tone... (they replaced my Krell Kav-500) as I broke up the Apogee/Krell hometheater system. They have very good midrange quality, and "do" have tube bloom there...vocals are around 1-2 feet forward. Highs are extended and sweet, no tube roll off.

I would say that they are a great choice for people that like solid state...but, want better tone, top to bottom....and a more rounded/lush sounding midrange.....I give them my "bang for buck award"

The Real traps from Ethan Weiner are much better than "any" tube traps....go there if you can afford it. That said, any type of room treatment is better than none...even the Home Depot kind.

Dave

ctviggen · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Jun 2007, 12:42 am »

Quote from: flintstone on 22 Jun 2007, 11:28 pm

The Real traps from Ethan Weiner are much better than "any" tube traps....go there if you can afford it.
Dave

I'm not sure I'd go that far (and I have 9 traps from Ethan and two traps/sub traps from ASC). I think if you build some nice traps tailored to your specific situation, these would work better, as Ethan's traps are both low and high frequency. In other word, tube traps have the benefit of (possibly) being better at certain particular frequencies, which Ethan's traps cannot do.You could kill the specific frequencies at which you have your problem, then apply some combination of selective absorption and diffusion to really affect the room. Having said that, unless you want to spend tons of time figuring out your specific configuration, Ethan's traps work spectacularly well.

meilankev · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Jun 2007, 02:18 am »

sbcgroup,

As folks here know, I use KORA Cosmos amps with my RM40s. They have worked out well for me. However, George (zybar) had the same amps (actually, he had an upgraded pair), and he felt they were insufficient driving his RM40s in his room and system. The only differences were that his room was considerably larger than mine. Plus, he didn't feed them a balanced signal, and I found a pretty big difference in their sound when fed a balanced signal vs unbalanced.

Now, is that enough to explain how he and I came to such different conclusions??? Who knows??? And I'm not gonna bore you with other tesitmonials from folks you've never met or corresponded with.

I can say that back in the Harmonic Discord days, Brian Cheney stated that he had never heard the RM40s sound as good as they sounded when mated with KORA Cosmos amps. Even when playing large orchestral pieces at very loud volumes, the KORAs did not run out of gas (while playing in his largish listening room). Granted, this was before all the speaker improvements that have taken place over the last 4-5 years - and so I'm sure his experience with the KORAs/RM40 combo back then is no longer #1 on his list (of RM40 moments). But remember, this listening session was with the very earliest version of the RM40s - completely stock (no upgraded caps, wiring, nothing). Who knows - perhaps if he heard these monoblocks with his very latest and greatest iteration of the RM40s, he would once again reach the same conclusion.

Again, I'm a happy customer. I've had them up and running now for ~ 5 years with no problems whatsoever. Note I run them 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. They only get turned off for their bi-monthly maintenance.

KORA Cosmos monoblocks
100W Triode Pure Class A

Kevin

P.S. - Here's an old link for the KORA amps:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/ces2001/preshow/page5.htm

PLMONROE · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Jun 2007, 07:59 pm »

I too have the Kora Cosmos (Reference editon) amps which I use on the top end of my RM-60's. They are sweet, beautiful, liquid and revealing -- far better sounding than any of three different SETs I have tried. As for volume. I wouldn't dare to turn them up to max for fear of doing structural damage to both myself and my home!

sbcgroup1 · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 Jun 2007, 07:20 pm »

Quote from: RGordonpf on 22 Jun 2007, 10:33 pm

The problem is getting SET amps with big enough transformers to drive the current hungry VMPS speakers. The deHavillands are one of the few SET amps that can supply sufficient current.

Kora Cosmos? I'll check it out....

Anyways, I stopped by the Jolida site and checked out their Music Envoy amps. Those seem really super powerful. Anyone had any experience with those? I know I've listened to some of their gear in the past and it was really first rate and very cost effective.

But again, I'm tending to think I should be bi-amping with my cinenova on my front LR's and perhaps tube on my cc. (I'd start with the towers first...lol...)

As far as traps are concerned, I've been in really decent recording studios that have used all Auralex traps. The Ethan Weiner stuff looks more heavy grade...but does it REALLY matter? I mean, if you are producing commercial quality music in a recording room using Auralex, etc. Has anyone every ditched their Auralex stuff for Weiner's stuff?

-Ed