[OTL]

Well the other dealer near me was Sound by Singer and even they wouldn't charge a person....I think this may become a trend to get back at us audiophiles for the hours of time wasting we heap on the salespeople

I had a personal call from Andy Singer @1993 or so.  A week prior I had visited Sound by Singer and purchased @ $2k of CAL Audio gear after an audition of the Muse Model One preamp, Muse Model 125 mono amps, CAL Delta CD player/Alpha DAC and Apogee Centaurs.  I decided on the CAL gear and nixed the Muse due to power output and available cash. The Apogees were already in my living room. 

When the shipment arrived from Sound by Singer, the Delta CD player was perfect but the Alpaha tube DAC had obviously been opened and had seen some "in circuit" time as the top of the unit and the RCA's were scratched up.  I called 'em and wanted a "new" unit.  Andy personally called me at home, defending why a "new" unit might have "imperfections".  He spent about fifteen minutes on the phone trying to persuade me to accept his used gear as new.  To his credit, he finally gave in and swapped the "used" unit with the CAL Alpha that is still in my system today.  Confrontational?  Assholic?  Inconvienient?  Rude?  You make the call.

I've never returned to Sound by Singer.

Nothing has changed in 14 or so years....to them it's money.  To us it's music. 

Guys like John DeVore, Brian Cheney, Mark Schifter, Steve McCormack, Frank Van Alstine and many others deserve our attention, our ears and our dollars.  Unfortunately some of the "dealers" get in the way.  Long live the 'net!

The Audio Circle ROCKS!

Listen, share, enjoy!
OTL.

[TONEPUB]

Either way, asking someone to pay 1500 to LISTEN to a pair of speakers is pretty crazy!!

Even if I knew I wanted them, don't think I'd go that far...

[eric the red]

Speaking of auditioning gear at a dealer then buying it off the net...Another thing to consider here is that the gear being discussed is a pair of loudspeakers. Most any other piece of equipment can be purchased used off of Audiogon, inserted into the chain and evaluated then sold off for a small loss if it doesn't work in your rig. It's a lot harder to buy a pair of speakers off the 'gon, pay for the shipping hoping they don't get damaged in transit, then if they don't work for you, sell and repack them and again, pray to the shipping gods that they make it to your buyer in one piece. I've seen a lot more pairs of unhot, unsold speakers on Agone then any other pieces of gear. But then, you almost have to audition speakers at a dealer before deciding that you want to look for them used or discounted on the net... On a side note: I once posted a question on Audiogon about my McCormack preamp and much to my surprise, Steve Mac answered the question himself

[OTL]

[quote ....... On a side note: I once posted a question on Audiogon about my McCormack preamp and much to my surprise, Steve Mac answered the question himself
[/quote]

That's EXACTLY the point of my previous post.  When folks care it's a passion.  When they don't, it's just business.

VPI, Steve McCormack, VMPS and Muse presently get most of my money.  Why?  They answer the phone, respond to emails and follow though until the issue is resolved to my satisfaction.  This degree of quality is not just procedure it's character.  And character is not very easy to find these days.

[JLM]

Retail mark-up on cars is obnoxious.  Driving the car off the lot after the sale loses $3,000.   

What idiot pays full MSRP for a GM or Ford?  Even Honda and Toyota pricing "softens" as the current model ages year to year.

I like the Saturn, and now Scion, pricing.  The Scion example is particularly interesting.  My dealer sells both.  The Scion tC is pretty much the youth/2 door sport hatch equilavent of a Toyota Camry for $4000 less.  The Scion xA is 5 door hatch version of the Toyota Yaris that sells for less (when comparably equipped).  As the Scion salesfolk tell it, the company simply took out some of the markup, which appears to be the case.  But when you factor that the solid Scion pricing helps hold resale even better, and lack of fustration for not getting a better deal elsewhere/later/etc., and that both sit on the same lot to start with does makes you wonder.

Some like grangling for better prices, but IME most would rather just make a hassle free, honest deal.


For those of us who can't travel thousands of miles to CES or RMAF sort of venues, I'd like to see vendors hit the road with an audiophile RV to show their stuff.  Have a local audiophile or club host, making arrangements, providing meals and a place to sleep, and most importantly - advertise.  Park at a mall for exposure for the casual general public exposure, and have some private (by appointment only) auditions.


tvad4,

I agree that when you ask a dealer to order an out of stock item for you there's not a lot of retail value there.  Audio pieces shouldn't (but we know can) require after purchase service.  And to some degree you be ordering the item based on your general impressions of the dealership or the other models that he does have on display.  This limited retail value may explain why some of our AC companies (like Channel Island Audio) have pulled out of using retail outlets.

[Bill Baker]

When folks care it's a passion.  When they don't, it's just business.

 For myself, this has always been a passion and I still enjoy what I do. Once you get to the point of not enjoying what you do, it simply becomes a *job*. I have had *job* in the past and while I did enjoy a few of them, they were still just a job that paid the bills and kept food on the table for my family.

In order to have a showroom and pay employees (and keep the lights on, etc) it costs a lot of money.  Even a small space in a major city other than Chicago, NYC or Los angeles probably costs 5-10 thousand dollars a month when you add up all the costs.

You have to keep showing the stuff in the hope that someone is actually going to buy, but if no one buys for a while, you go out of business.

 Yes, it is tough being a dealer these days with a commercial location. I have had a showroom now for a few years but never did much on the retail end. My showroom is now more of a "working facility" with most products on display being custom units that are burning in for other customers. Many have come through my doors to audition a product and want to purchse the demo piece(s) they were listening to only to find out the products would be packed up and shipped out the next day on their way to their new owners.

Retail is a very small portion of my business. Less than 5% and this is the reason I do not keep a lot of retail products on the floor. My local business is almost non existant and I no longer spemd money on trying to advertise locally. I do have some products from my retail line-up on the floor such as certian CD players, speakers, cables and so forth but these are used for testing and evaluating my own products moreso than actually used for customer evaluation.

 A major portion of my overhead is actually supplies for custom built products, R&D and parts inventory. I still have to pay the bills for a 1400 sq. ft. facility.

 In the end, because I spend most of my time at the benches, I truly enjoy it when a potential customer wants to come in to audition a piece of gear and there is no way I am going to scare them off by telling them they had to pay me to do it

[TheChairGuy]

OTL,

Andy Singer graced our friendly little forum several times in the past....all quite incoherently 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=profile;u=2053;sa=showPosts

What an arrogant / snobby / half-cocked piece-of-work work, this guy is 

[macrojack]

Years ago, during a very brief stint as factory rep for Boulder Amplifiers, I was dispatched to NYC to demonstrate our wares to potential customers. Sound by Singer was on the list. Andy was late for our appointment and when he finally showed, he breezed in like a celebrity and began shouting orders to his minions. He treated his salespeople like servants and us like something he found on his shoe. The guy was obese, arrogant and self aggrandizing. He barely listened to the amps or us and left abruptly when he finished his bagel. I didn't like him.

JLM - When my younger brother was in the car biz, he told me that dealers make approximately $1500 per new car and make up the rest in financing, upgrades and fees. Used cars are a crap shoot in terms of margin but generally more profitable.

The bricks and mortar store has been doomed for a very long time. Those that continue do so on construction and installation charges, not front door sales. When the home theater package is sold, there is no line item pricing. The deal goes as a package protecting margins that would otherwise be demolished at the box stores or online.

The only exceptions to this rule exist in very high density population areas or through internet subsidy.

Now, all that said, I think that we make audio purchases too hard with our obsessive concerns for optimization. With the knowledge we have, it is really quite easy to assemble a terrific system at any price point, even if that means relying solely on yard sales and pawn shops. Good enough is good enough and getting there is most of the fun.

I have often seen comments from befuddled audiophiles about how musicians don't seem to care about getting good sound from their personal sound systems. That has always amazed me too. I have come to believe, however, that they are enjoying the music without dismantling the presentation. If it really is "all about the music", why not just let it play and not worry so much about any subtle aspect that we may be missing. We're so focused on the trees that we are forgetting the forest. Or "penny wise and pound foolish".

[reddmadder]

Funny you should mention S by S...Last week I went in to audition a intergrated amp.
I was totally floored by how shabby and ill conceived his showrooms are.
I'm talking speakers in front of cinder block walls with facing glass doors...I know, not unlike many audio stores, but the discrepancy between his advertising and the store is quite dramatic.How anyone can manage to audition anything in that place is beyond me.

[Cacophonix]

Now, all that said, I think that we make audio purchases too hard with our obsessive concerns for optimization. With the knowledge we have, it is really quite easy to assemble a terrific system at any price point, even if that means relying solely on yard sales and pawn shops. Good enough is good enough and getting there is most of the fun.

I have often seen comments from befuddled audiophiles about how musicians don't seem to care about getting good sound from their personal sound systems. That has always amazed me too. I have come to believe, however, that they are enjoying the music without dismantling the presentation. If it really is "all about the music", why not just let it play and not worry so much about any subtle aspect that we may be missing. We're so focused on the trees that we are forgetting the forest. Or "penny wise and pound foolish".

 
A wonderfully thoughtful post! I agree with you completely on this!!

[kbuzz3]

Funny you should mention S by S...Last week I went in to audition a intergrated amp.
I was totally floored by how shabby and ill conceived his showrooms are.
I'm talking speakers in front of cinder block walls with facing glass doors...I know, not unlike many audio stores, but the discrepancy between his advertising and the store is quite dramatic.How anyone can manage to audition anything in that place is beyond me.

Funny, but i bought a little system from john devore years ago when he was at S & S - a simple and dignified transaction. Cant say i have ever been back. 

I had a @#$ expereince at lyric years ago and never went back. Get this "you must leave the listening room,  as a very important customer is coming in"

FYI- Re car dealers. USA brands --like gm-- non trucks, you would be very surprised how little is made on a sedan.  My family is in the industry.

This is not to defend dealers. As a general thing, i agree with the above, most audio dealers suck.  Cherish the good ones.

[eric the red]

Now, all that said, I think that we make audio purchases too hard with our obsessive concerns for optimization. With the knowledge we have, it is really quite easy to assemble a terrific system at any price point, even if that means relying solely on yard sales and pawn shops. Good enough is good enough and getting there is most of the fun.

I have often seen comments from befuddled audiophiles about how musicians don't seem to care about getting good sound from their personal sound systems. That has always amazed me too. I have come to believe, however, that they are enjoying the music without dismantling the presentation. If it really is "all about the music", why not just let it play and not worry so much about any subtle aspect that we may be missing. We're so focused on the trees that we are forgetting the forest. Or "penny wise and pound foolish".

 
A wonderfully thoughtful post! I agree with you completely on this!!

Yes-excellent post.

[PhilNYC]

If it really is "all about the music", why not just let it play and not worry so much about any subtle aspect that we may be missing. We're so focused on the trees that we are forgetting the forest. Or "penny wise and pound foolish".

But for a lot of music, IMHO it is the subtle aspects and nuances that really separate the great for the good (or even just the good from the bad).  What makes Sonny Rollins different from just any tenor sax player comes a lot from his tone and inflection...similar comments can be made for just about any of the great players (Yo Yo Ma, Wynton Marsalis, Isaac Stern, Jeff Beck, etc). 

[kbuzz3]

If it really is "all about the music", why not just let it play and not worry so much about any subtle aspect that we may be missing. We're so focused on the trees that we are forgetting the forest. Or "penny wise and pound foolish".

But for a lot of music, IMHO it is the subtle aspects and nuances that really separate the great for the good (or even just the good from the bad).  What makes Sonny Rollins different from just any tenor sax player comes a lot from his tone and inflection...similar comments can be made for just about any of the great players (Yo Yo Ma, Wynton Marsalis, Isaac Stern, Jeff Beck, etc). 

Excellent point phil, as usual. Tone is King. Nuance and subtly are almost as important. And arguably more important then virtuosity.

This confirms my theory of say why Eric Clapton o rE Van Halen are overrated.
While say Danny Gatton is underrated.

[eric the red]

If it really is "all about the music", why not just let it play and not worry so much about any subtle aspect that we may be missing. We're so focused on the trees that we are forgetting the forest. Or "penny wise and pound foolish".

But for a lot of music, IMHO it is the subtle aspects and nuances that really separate the great for the good (or even just the good from the bad).  What makes Sonny Rollins different from just any tenor sax player comes a lot from his tone and inflection...similar comments can be made for just about any of the great players (Yo Yo Ma, Wynton Marsalis, Isaac Stern, Jeff Beck, etc). 

When I'm listening to a good song on the factory stereo in my truck or at my friend's house who is a vinyl/music junkie with 2000+ LPs and Radio Shack reciever, ancient Dual TT and a pair of Celestion speakers I sold him for $125.00, it's not about what I'm not hearing but about what I AM hearing. Are we deconstructing music somehow to feed this wierd addiction called audiophilia?

[1000a]

i thought this was about being charged to hear speakers, OK I'll start at the beginning.
really I understand how these threads get side tracked, I am great at it

[Say]

Interesting topic. This thread's appeal lured me right into it.

Back in the mid nineties I drove about 50 miles to see the latest stuff at a high end store in Michigan. After checking out items way over my budget, a low end model from Audio Research eventually caught my fancy. It was a preamp, Ls7 I believe. Anyway I ended up buying it and was so pleased that I went back to that same store a couple of months later. The same owner who sold me the preamp was there to greet me again. After some small talk I asked him why the preamp had a fixed power cord since the trend was leaning towards removable aftermarket cords. He gave me some bs explanation that this is the way W. Z. Johnson wanted 'em. OK. Whatever!

I continued to browse and listen to some more stuff. Alongside of me was an elder gentleman with money to spend. After some audio chit chat that friendly audiophile got around to asking me what kind of speakers I was using with my new preamp. I told him I used an Apogee Centaur (splendid midrange btw). It was similar but wasn't one of the Maggies that he had been looking at in the store.

Well I'll be darn. The bat eared owner came rushing into the room red faced as all get go. He looked directly at me and waved for me to follow him into the next room. Once there, that so and so got two inches from my face and yelled some cheap threats my way. He must have had too much coffee. What the? Why? The disgruntled owner proceeded to intimidate me by saying that I better not interfere with his customer because that customer was about to spend $40,000 on some new equipment. Magnapan speakers included.

Surprised, I looked at the owner dumbfounded. Here I was a previous customer looking at new items when he angrily had the nerve to lower himself to the maturity of a tadpole. Upset, I looked at him and told him that I won't be coming back (looking back on it now I should have gave him a taste of my real thoughts regarding his neanderthalic conduct).

I actually went to that same store 11 years later. The owner wasn't around. Must have been on break or something. Who knows what I might have said to brighten his day now that I have more money to spend in comparison to back then. I sure won't buy from him again though. I probably would tease him however.

[Daygloworange]

I had a @#$ expereince at lyric years ago and never went back. Get this "you must leave the listening room,  as a very important customer is coming in"

I had a similar experience a number of years ago at Bay/Bloor Radio in Toronto. The rep from Totem was up from Montreal and I had waited patiently for a chance at the demo room to hear their line of floorstanders, and had just begun my turn at my listening session with my CD's, when some dude barges in with his wife and screaming kids, oblivious to me, and asking what are the narrowest speakers they offer as he doesn't have a lot of room to spare in their apartment, blah, blah, blah....

The Totem rep just forgets that I'm even there and goes on to start chatting with this guy and his wailing kids, trying to make a quick sale. Needless to say, I was shocked. I went out and asked for the manager, and calmly went up one side of him, then down the other.

He went in to speak to the rep, and came back and said that if I would wait a few minutes, he would guarantee me 30 min of uninterrupted time. I calmly thanked him for his gesture and waited, but was still pissed. When I went back in, the rep apologized, and asked which of my CD's I wanted to hear first. I gave him my selection, and he put it in. But I couldn't hear a thing, except my blood still on a boil.

After about a minute, I asked him to remove my CD, and I proceeded to tell him what a complete dufus he was, as I couldn't focus at all. I was way too pissed at what had transpired. I had nothing but contempt for this moron.

I was going to write a scathing letter to Vince from Totem. I had it all planned out how I was going to write it. Then decided that it was all too much negative energy. So I went on the Internet, and...make a long story short, came across GR Research and Audiocircle, and now couldn't be happier.

Now I have much better speakers that I ever could have gotten from Totem, and a much better front end system than I ever could have gotten from Bay/Bloor Radio. Neither of those two have ever, or will ever see a dime from me.

Kinda like Audio Karma, y'know? 


Cheers

[PhilNYC]

Are we deconstructing music somehow to feed this wierd addiction called audiophilia?

I don't think you can put a blanket statement on it.  Different types of music and performances demand different types of listening and appreciation.  When I listen to The Kinks or The Clash, I couldn't give a damn about hearing every little nuance.  But when I listen to Sonny Rollins or Stan Getz, the nuance makes a big difference in my enjoyment of the music.

[1000a]

it is an interesting question to ponder no doubt, and in some ways I think quite true as it does beg the question just what is it we are after..............

but I agree I can do Rock and drive, clean house, do fairly simple tasks but as soon as its complex or envolves subilties I like to be in the sweet spot and kill the lights close my eyes.  I do enjoy Rock in the sweet spot but it is not necessary.

lots of time I am at my desk I can farmilarize my self with some new pop rock stuff while I work, and to very little extent jazz and classical, thats kinda nice cause I just can't be on the sofa all day or they will come take my stereo away.

I do think its also interesting that the high end to my limited knowledge really did not get started at enrest until the AM rock radio/ top 40 thing was already part of the collective mind set.  washing cars sitting on the beach just hanging out, it is interesting cause Little Steven (aka Miami Steve who does the underground garage show quite good incidently) seems almost to speak to this kinda soundtrack history of our lives kinda thing.

on a tangent of sorts Neil Young (raggedy Crazy Horse) loves analogue has repeataly spoken out how he dislikes digital, its weird I see him listening to a really fine stereo. Yet I see Miami Steve who loves the garage rock roughness of some music (despite his smoother soul influences) listening to some sort of device thats sounds like an old beat up Am radio with dents in the metal grill but it can play extremely loud with 1/2 good good bass.

I think much of rock at least the non ELP Yes stuff just lends it self to a participate in life spirit as where jazz and classical asks me to be still.

Yet it is still quite fun to sit center and hear rock bass as if I were in a small bar sitting in apprioximatley in the same place in the center at a table 7 feet out, hearing the amp buzz and feeling the impack of the bass hit me, that is viseral.  hearing the yardbirds in my car is really quite different but really to me such a large part of what rock pop is all about.
that is how must of us listened and then it was guite a different experience to go to a show.