[Ferdi]

Hi, I recently decided to do a little experiment in my main listening system. The regular setup is TV/Rotel RDV985-DVDP/Sony CDP X77ES CDP connecting to Marantz SR7000 acting as pre/pro (and amp for center and surround, feeding into stereo Stratos, powering Dynaudio Audience 82. For music, I use the "direct" option.

While I have been largely happy with this setup, I feel it is not quite there yet. In order to see what a change in pre-amp would bring, I inserted a Sansui AU317 as a pre-amp (integrated with pre outs).

The Sansui is about 20 years old and I bought it second hand. Its normal role in life is powering my study system.

The setup with the Sansui has some obvious problems compared to the regular setup described above. Clarity, treble quality, resolution, background noise all are distinctly worse. Soundstaging (both width and depth), bass and fullness of sound and general musicality are significantly better.

The main question is how much better my system can get with a proper, high quality pre-amp.  
Secondary questions to this are:
- What pre-amp to use. I am very tempted by the Odyssey Tempest but also have heard good feedback on the IRD LLC-Purist. I also still intend to build (I know, I know, have wanted to for some time now) a scratch Grounded Grid.

The other question is, what is missing in my SR7000?
- With the direct circuit, wouldn't it change into a regular passive pre?
- If so, wouldn;t that mean that a regular passive pre would give me the same limitations. Maybe some sort of impedance mismatch?

Any input that helps me get a little insight into this is greatly appreciated.

Ferdi

[hmen]

I tried using my SR7200 as a pre in the "direct mode" with my  Decware Zen Tube amp. Since the amp has a volume control I tried it without the SR7200 and I found that the amp sounded better on it's own. I then tried a couple of different pre's before settling on a pre from AES. I think your Stratos is probably in a completely different class than than your SR700 and switching to a better pre for stereo would make a very big difference. BTW, I still use the SR7200 for HT.

[EDS_]

Ferdi-
I think that a good pre-amp, in a high-end rig, is analogous to racing fuel in an F1 race-car.
Both are taken for granted and not thought of often but both are critical for high-end performance.

I've heard the Tempest but in a system I was not at all familiar with. I'd give it much consideration.
Also consider an Adcom GFP-750. I've used these for a while they are wonderful for the price. Used 750 are avilable as well. 750s are active or passive and they include stereo, reverse and mono switching.

[EDS_]

sorry--

[Ferdi]

Hi, I have of course heard all the comments on the impact of a good pre but was still surprised that such a modest integrated amp could still improve many aspects of my listening experience.

I am thinking hard about a Tempest. Still thinking..... I need to get the time to build the Grid as well, most of the parts are in the house. I expect it to end up as a learning project.

Can't really do much with Adcom. I think this is mostly US, I am in Europe so am reliant on local or global brands or mail-order/internet companies like Odyssey (Hi Klaus!)

Listening to some Eva Cassidy, I am not convinced there is a problem though. Tough call!

[randytsuch]

Ferdi,
Your sr7000 may not turn into a passive pre, in direct mode.
I am pretty sure there are still opamps in the path, in direct mode.  I would guess in direct mode, it doesn't do a a/d then d/a conversion on the signal, like my Sony HT processor does for every input.

As the sr7000 is designed for ht applications, I would bet the signal path for audio is not as simple as it would be in a good preamp.  I would also thing a good audio preamp would have a better output stage than the 7000.

Something to think about.

BTW, there is a post over at HD, in the tweak section, on building a simple passive preamp.  It's pretty cheap to build, you might give that a try, and see how it does.  With a passive, you need to worry about keeping IC's short though.

Randy

[Ferdi]

HI Randy, thanks for the suggestions. I have seen various designs for passives and actually have Klaus' Etesian on order. Now I am wondering if I'll be happy with that or should move to an active pre.

A test can't hurt though. 2 more weeks for my holidays so maybe I'll have some time to get the soldering iron out.

[DVV]

Hi, I recently decided to do a little experiment in my main listening system. The regular setup is TV/Rotel RDV985-DVDP/Sony CDP X77ES CDP connecting to Marantz SR7000 acting as pre/pro (and amp for center and surround, feeding into stereo Stratos, powering Dynaudio Audience 82. For music, I use the "direct" option.

While I have been largely happy with this setup, I feel it is not quite there yet. In order to see what a change in pre-amp would bring, I inserted a Sansui AU317 as a pre-amp (integrated wit ...

In my view, a quality preamp will change the sound of most systems. It often amazes me how people tend to sort of overlook the preamp (the audio gear designers, that is), all too often thinking of it as a sort of add-on, a must, and a simple thing. Well, it may be simple in electrical terms, but electrically simple in no way means automatically good as well.

I think your system could improve quite a stretch with a good preamp. The problem is that I am hard pressed what to call a "good preamp". One model that springs to mind is a locally made unit by a company called Korato (http://www.korato.com ). It's a tube job, made by people who have been at it for over 20 years, not cheap, but not too expensive either.

As for Sansui's 317, that certainly brings back many happy memories. That's one of the first models I seriously rebuilt - the sheer number of changes prohibits the words "tweaked". As a last step, I changed its output devices, from some weedy 100W to hefty Motorola 250W devices, matched to below 1% tolerance. Wow, did that thing sound better, or what! Of course, most of it was also changed, but overall, it was a whole different ball game in the end. Its owner, a good friend of mine, kept it until about 2-3 years back, when he finally replaced his entire system.

Cheers,
DVV

[W.C.]

You would not beleive how good your system will sound with the Tempest. A really good preamp can make a huge difference.

[Hantra]

Ferdi:

Off topic, but. . .  What else did you listen to before you got the XA777ES?  I am thinking really hard about getting one, and I want to make sure that's the ticket.  I listened to the SCD-777, and it knocked my socks off, but at the same time, I hear the XA sounds better. . .

What do you think?

B

[Ferdi]

Hi Hantra, I think we have a bit of confusion. My CDP is the original 1990 (or close) CDP, not the SACD/CD player that a few here have (although I wouldn't mind having one of those..)

I didn't really listen to much beside this. I got a chance to buy this one for a fairly reasonable sum: about USD300 in 8/10 condition but without manual.

I really like this player and think that with the Tent Clock (see the Lab) it is really hard to beat for sane money. (Equal, possibly with any of the popular outboard DACs)

Ferdi

[Ferdi]

Hi Dejan, thanks for the link to Korato. Looks like an interesting set of products and an interesting company. Do you have any experience with how they serve remote locations, like Netherlands?

thanks,

Ferdi

[DVV]

Hi Dejan, thanks for the link to Korato. Looks like an interesting set of products and an interesting company. Do you have any experience with how they serve remote locations, like Netherlands?

thanks,

Ferdi

Netherlands a "far location"? You have to be kidding Ferdi! And especially regarding the Dutch. Listen, a friend of mine, a Dutchman living in Belgium just now (job location), decided he wanted speakers like mine, since he had already taken up my advice and bought a Karan integrated on my recommendation. So he sits in his car and drives over, we get to meet in person, he meets the designer and manufacturer, we spend three GREAT days together, and he drives off with a pair of speakers like mine, plus a pair of their smaller brothers. Just like that.

I've never seen a nation in Europe as mobile as you Dutch, second only to the Gringos, whose disdain for distances is truly amazing (and wonderful, for me at least).

To answer your question, as far as I know, they export across Europe and elsewhere. I don't know if they have anybody in Holland, but you can always ask. As for sounds, I feel it's a really good preamp, although in all honesty, I must admit I auditioned it mostly as the first part of their system, backed up by their own power amp. I did try it as a preamp, using my Harman/Kardon HK680's output stage for muscle (thank God they let you do that) and must admit it sounded the pants off Harman's own preamp stage. Same goes for my Yamaha AX 592 integrated, which has a surprisingly capable output stage, but is severely let down by its preamp stage.

If memory serves, there is a review on http://www.tnt-audio.com by an Englishman living in France, Geoff Husband.

Cheers,
DVV

[Ferdi]

Hi Dejan, NL isn't really remote. As far as I am concerned, it is the hub of the world   . I realize this is not true for everyone's point of view though. In this context, remote is where Korato cannot effectively serve directly but maybe they have a really good support setup, like Klaus at Odyssey.

thanks for your views. Might be a good opportunity to take a small trip sometime in the next few months. I admit to being quite mobile. I typically leave NL once or twice a week on business, flying anywhere in Europe (mostly northern or mid.)

I have seen the TNT review. Korato link to it from their site.

Groeten,

Ferdi

[DVV]

Hi Dejan, NL isn't really remote. As far as I am concerned, it is the hub of the world   . I realize this is not true for everyone's point of view though. In this context, remote is where Korato cannot effectively serve directly but maybe they have a really good support setup, like Klaus at Odyssey.

thanks for your views. Might be a good opportunity to take a small trip sometime in the next few months. I admit to being quite mobile. I typically leave NL once or twice a week on business, flying a ...

Just make sure you let everybody know when you plan to come, and how. If it's by plane, no problem in intercepting you at the airport, real private chauffer style. It's always a good idea to have somebody local at hand, saves you a lot of time - plus it's a lot of fun, no trial and error, you get taken to the right places straight off. Places you'd never find, places not mentioned in the usual tourist literature.

If it's by car, I'll tell you where to go, like I did with Leon, and I'll be waiting for you.

If you were to interpret this as an invitation, you'd be right. To this day, each and every person I met on Internet first and then in real life has turned out to be better yet in real life.

Think about it, Ferdi. Talk to me if you like, I'll do my best to answer as well as I can, and of course, I'll introduce you to these designers and manufacturers, there are only six in the whole country anyway, of which three are in Belgrade, and the fourth is 70 km northwards, about an hour's drive. A nice day's outing there and back.

Cheers,
DVV

[Ferdi]

Hi Dejan, thanks for the invite. Right now I need to first get through the next 2 weeks' of work.

Will return to this then.

We have had some earlier exchanges and it would be good to meet up sometime/somehow.

Ferdi

[audiojerry]

...and the fourth is 70 km northwards, about an hour's drive. A nice day's outing there and back...

An hour's drive, a nice day's outing,... for 70 km? Either you guys have very bad roads, or very slow cars, or both?...

Or is it mountainous and treacherous? That would be more to my liking,  as long as there was a nice Ferrari or Porsche available... No Yugo's, PULEEZE!

[DVV]

...and the fourth is 70 km northwards, about an hour's drive. A nice day's outing there and back...

An hour's drive, a nice day's outing,... for 70 km? Either you guys have very bad roads, or very slow cars, or both?...

No, no, no! The actual drive is less than an hour, but you don't know how things work around here. You can't just walk in and do business. Over here, you have to sit down, name your poison, coffee you get anyway, and coffe you DON'T just gulp down, you have to savor it. Then exchange some pleasantries, then move on to the topic at hand. Compare your philosophies, have a nice fight, pat each other's back, and go for a damn big lunch somewhere. Over lunch, in between some meat and the salad, you clinch the deal in 5 seconds flat. By then, assuming you started at say 10 AM, it's about 4 PM.

But look back and you realize you actually had a good time. Don't ask me how or why - it's a mystery.

Or is it mountainous and treacherous? That would be more to my liking,  as long as there was a nice Ferrari or Porsche available... No Yugo's, PULEEZE!

No, actually it's as flat as you can make it. No Porsches, no Ferraris, but plenty of nuts on the roads, re-enacting "The Longest Day".

As for Yugos, well Jerry, drive your best over here and me an' my ol' Yugo will give you a run for your money - like my son and me gave a guy in a Mercedes-Benz E class and another guy in a BMW today. It's tweaked, you see, or in auto language, it's tuned. You'd be surprised what twin barrel Weber carbs (that's because I'm old fashioned, you see, I prefer the sound of a carburrated engine to that of an injected one, I love the throaty, gutteral sound when you hit 7,000 rpm) will do for a Yugo engine with extended stroke (and hence more displacement), backed up by Ferodo air vented disc brakes and 2x4 calipers, riding on brand new Avon tyres (installed this afternoon). Of course, each and every one of my cylinders has been tweaked to perfection level permitted by measuring instruments - individually (oh I know it's only done in Formula I engines, but then my Yugo's paintwork uses dual component Max Mayer paint, the type Mercedes-Benz uses only on their S class, the $100+K models). Monroe gas schock absorbers and calibrated suspension springs also do their job.

So, any ol' time you feel like adding some adrenaline to your bloodstream, gimme a call. But don't say I didn't warn you - I do have a German-made Sachs gearbox, which is heavily modified. Just call him Rawhide. Why? Weeeeell, I'll just put the pedal to the metal for you in third (see, I'm being gentle and considerate here, not first, not second, where the REAL action is, but pedestrian third) and watch your face go green Ever went from 0 to 62 mph in less than 9 seconds? In a Yugo?

The best part of it is that on the outside, it's a plain, stock, disgustingly cop-blue Yugo. You have to know where to look to see it's kinda different ... Red Ferodo calipers may start you wondering what the hell is going on here, a Yugo ain't supposed to have that, and the sound is all wrong, not docile at all, but kind of threatening. And the exhaust pipe is NEVER painted black, and it's usually smaller, but here? Things I couldn't hide.

Of course, if you prefer the smooth ride of my station wagon, with amenities such as air conditioning, stereo sound by Sony, air bags, ABS, EDB, etc, sure, no problem, I use it for holiday travels. We just came back from 15 glorious days in Greece, and that station wagon helped the general feeling of ease.

Jerry, ol' buddy, I done told yuh I was a technology freak.

Cheers,
DVV

[audiojerry]

DVV wrote:

No, no, no! The actual drive is less than an hour, but you don't know how things work around here. You can't just walk in and do business. Over here, you have to sit down, name your poison, coffee you get anyway, and coffe you DON'T just gulp down, you have to savor it. Then exchange some pleasantries, then move on to the topic at hand. Compare your philosophies, have a nice fight, pat each other's back, and go for a damn big lunch somewhere. Over lunch, in between some meat and the salad, you clinch the deal in 5 seconds flat. By then, assuming you started at say 10 AM, it's about 4 PM.

But look back and you realize you actually had a good time. Don't ask me how or why - it's a mystery.

As for Yugos, well Jerry, drive your best over here and me an' my ol' Yugo will give you a run for your money - like my son and me gave a guy in a Mercedes-Benz E class and another guy in a BMW today. It's tweaked, you see, or in auto language, it's tuned. You'd be surprised what twin barrel Weber carbs (that's because I'm old fashioned, you see, I prefer the sound of a carburrated engine to that of an injected one, I love the throaty, gutteral sound when you hit 7,000 rpm) will do for a Yugo engine with extended stroke (and hence more displacement), backed up by Ferodo air vented disc brakes and 2x4 calipers, riding on brand new Avon tyres (installed this afternoon). Of course, each and every one of my cylinders has been tweaked to perfection level permitted by measuring instruments - individually (oh I know it's only done in Formula I engines, but then my Yugo's paintwork uses dual component Max Mayer paint, the type Mercedes-Benz uses only on their S class, the $100+K models). Monroe gas schock absorbers and calibrated suspension springs also do their job.

So, any ol' time you feel like adding some adrenaline to your bloodstream, gimme a call. But don't say I didn't warn you - I do have a German-made Sachs gearbox, which is heavily modified. Just call him Rawhide. Why? Weeeeell, I'll just put the pedal to the metal for you in third (see, I'm being gentle and considerate here, not first, not second, where the REAL action is, but pedestrian third) and watch your face go green

SOUNDS FANTASTIC - COUNT ME IN!

Ever went from 0 to 62 mph in less than 9 seconds? In a Yugo?

Yes, 0 - 60 kph, that is  
 
In all sincerity, you describe a wonderful way to spend the day. I'd love to drop in on you, your family, and your friends sometime.

[DVV]

DVV wrote: Yes, 0 - 60 kph, that is  
 
In all sincerity, you describe a wonderful way to spend the day. I'd love to drop in on you, your family, and your friends sometime.

By all means do so the first time you are able. I'll even throw in for free a ride in a REAL veteran Yugo, made in 1983, with a teeny-weeny 903 cc FIAT engine inside, the one my dad bought in 1983. I still keep it around, and by looking at it, you'd say it was a year or two old. But despite its VERY modest 45 horse powers, it will make some far more expensive cars blush (until I reach 60 km/h, by which time they will catch up with me in a roar of both driver and car anguish ).

As you see, I specialize in wolves in sheep's clothing.

But if you REALLY want some thrills, I'll see if I can arrange a ride in a race Yugo - 180 horse power in just 850 kilos puts you square into the Ferrari class. When the engine screams, you KNOW you are in a disguised Ferrari. Enzo would have loved it.

Cheers,
DVV