[raztec]

Hello

Newbie here trying to build my first home theatre. Your guys' help is recommended. I've got a few questions.

I listen to 50-50 music-movies.

1. I've got a chance to pick up a used pair of B&W 704 for $1800. For the same price I can get a pair of Sapphire XLs. Which is the better deal considering I won't need a sub or stands with the 704s but likely will for the XLs? Also, no chance to listen to the XLs before purchase but the 704s are being sold by a local dealer.

2. For amps, I'm thinking of the Arcam AVR 300 vs. Rotel 1057? Anyone have experience with these?

3. Finally, I'm hoping to get away without a centre speaker and use a phantom centre. The guy at the store says that for movies the centre is critical since the dialogue will otherwise be garbled or not loud enough. Is this true?

Thanks for your help,
Raz

[ctviggen]

I think if you want to play movies with some realism, a sub is in your future.  I have full range speakers for the front (and used to have them for the rear too), and have not one, not two, but three subs.  So, I wouldn't worry too much about whether you'll need or not need a sub, because you'll need one.  As for center channels, some people don't use them.  For my system, I performed tests with and without a center, and for the vast majority of information in films, not having a center was just as good as having a center.  However, for certain action scenes (think opening of the Lord of the Rings I or the lobby shootout scene in The Matrix), the center really helped.  Now, I use a Proceed AVP, which is old, as a preamp.  Others with newer, better preamps and different setups may offer different advide.  As for the speakers, I cannot help much. 

[bpape]

The center is important to lock the dialog to the screen for seats that are off center.  Garbled dialog is more usually a function of untreated low frequency decay times in the room.

For HT you should use a sub with pretty much any speaker.  Getting speakers set to image properly and lock to the screen rarely results in the best place to reproduce smooth bass response.

If it was my choice, I'd do the Sapphires all day long.  I think they'll surprise you as far as how deep they'll go, they image wonderfully, are very dynamic, etc.  

As for the choice of electronics, IMO the Arcam is more up to the standard of the Sapphires.  The Rotel isn't going to cut it IMO in terms of sound quality.

Bryan

[srb]

I just wanted to make a comment concerning using a center channel speaker or not with my Rotel RSX-1056.

I found that not using a center channel with the Rotel, resulted in a very noticeable reduction of clarity and dynamic range in the L & R surrounds.

I don't know why this occurs, if this anomaly is present in the updated RSX-1057, or if exists in other AVRs.

[Bob Reynolds]

1. I've got a chance to pick up a used pair of B&W 704 for $1800. For the same price I can get a pair of Sapphire XLs. Which is the better deal considering I won't need a sub or stands with the 704s but likely will for the XLs? Also, no chance to listen to the XLs before purchase but the 704s are being sold by a local dealer.

I think you'll be much happier with a "good" subwoofer regardless of which speakers you choose. Since ACI makes a good sub and provides excellent customer service here at AC, I'd lean towards ACI.

3. Finally, I'm hoping to get away without a centre speaker and use a phantom centre. The guy at the store says that for movies the centre is critical since the dialogue will otherwise be garbled or not loud enough. Is this true?

The center channel is critical for folks sitting off axis. If it's just a few folks sitting in front of the TV, your idea of using a phantom center should be fine.

Personally, I wouldn't sweat the electronics. I'd spend dollars on a subwoofer before electronics.

[electricbear]

I won't comment on you question of one speaker or another as I work at a B&W dealer and want my replies to be viewed as unbiased but I do have a comment about the use of a center channel. For movies a center channel is critical whether you are off axis or not. If you do not use one all your dialog is getting mixed in with the soundtrack, the cars crashing, the bullets flying etc . You will lose all definition , the action will be louder than the voices and you will be straining to hear what is being said. Someones voice is quite often the only reference that we have. I don't know what it sounds like when a train hits a truck on a level crossing but I do know what the human voice sounds like. The better defined and more believable the voices are, the more believable the whole movie is.
This applies to all receivers not just your Rotel ( good receiver btw). If you want more power find a used RMB1075 or 1095 and add that to your receiver. The processing done in the Rotel is actually very good for a receiver, better than most people realize.

[Zero]

Raz,

You've got some tough choices to make. Let me run down the situation;

First lets look at the foundation of your system; the amplifier. I tend to give Rotel the nod for home theater, while I give Arcam the nod when it comes to music. Here's what I would do in your position; determine how loud you want to take things. If you like to crank the volume a bit, the Rotel receiver will be the more ideal match. If you do not intend on cranking the tunes and music to extreme levels, I'd suggest the Arcam simply for audible step up in harmonic richness. Either receiver should deliver rock solid performance and power either the Sapphire XL or the Beemers well.

Now onto the center channel; It's already been said... get one. Building a dedicated dual purpose system with a receiver at the helm _without_ a center channel is like trying to play baseball without a mit. VCR aside, while there are still DVD's that come mixed for two channel listening as well as multi-channel - most anymore are mixed with information specifically for the center. You will be literally missing critical information without one.

And now finally, the Beemer 704's versus the Sapphire XL's; This is a tough call. On one hand, the 704's are a very attractive tower that requires no additional expense of a stand. Their metal dome tweeter will be more "alive" and forward compared to the soft dome on the Sapphire XL, which is a bit more laid back. This means the detail of a movie (or even piece of music) will be more easily discernible. B&W's have a long and distinguished history in audio and sport a nice open and detailed sound that many have come to love. While I feel this speaker lacks a bit of luster when it comes to rock/electronica/r&b/ - I find it to be pretty spiffy with jazz and small-scale classical. Movies wise, it's not the kind of speaker to thump you in the chest ; however, its semi-aggressive presentation will bring out all those movie thrills and bullet zings that'll keep you gripping your chair.

The ACI Sapphire XL's will require a stand. While their high end is smooth, the mid-range is less colored and oozes out great tone. Oh yeah, the bass from that small speaker ain't too shabby. With room gain, you can get strong output down into the upper 30hz range. When it comes to music; I'd give the nod to the XL. It is a more versatile speaker that can handle virtually any genre with aplomb. They are also far less fatiguing (over extended listening sessions) than the Beemers. I also feel that the Sapphire's just have a bit more 'soul'.  For theater, its a toss up.  My bias hides within what a speaker can do for music, not movies. I will say this though, if I want something a bit more thrilling and exciting - I'd chose the 704's for movies.  If I wanted something non-fatiguing that I could settle down with for the long-term, I'd go XL's. If I remember correctly, Mike has a few specials going on with the XL's - so theres a chance you may be able to get a better price than whats on the website.

Good luck !

[2gumby2]

The ACI speakers are VERY nice sounding. Better IMO than any B&W speaker that I've heard. As mentioned earlier, no fatigue and smooth.

[musicman06]

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say you'll be missing critical info without a centre since the "info" would simply be pushed to the other speakers. What you would be missing is the extra separation and clarity...

BTW, my votes would be for ACI, and Arcam. Centre and sub.