[TONEPUB]

Make you a great deal on an Aesthetix Callisto Signature....
Just PM me if interested.   

It's a fantastic preamp, even at cost no object (I belive they
are about 16k new...)

This will put you in a whole nother league...

[mcullinan]

Wel lit helps give an idea what people think is good. There are crap preamps out there...
Mike

[guest1632]

Wel lit helps give an idea what people think is good. There are crap preamps out there...
Mike

Hi Mike, I'll have to start another thread. What preamps would you suggest I stay away from and why.

On those that chimed in with the 30 or so, maybe give some of us your experiences that would indicate why your selection you think is really the Title Of: "bang for the Buck."

Now I picked out 2 of them, the Norh AKA2B preamp, and the BusyBee preamp from Paul.  My reason were simple.:

1. The Norh preamp reviews indicate that it's a pretty decent piece. 2.  Paul's preamps can be had for sometime good prices. Noone has complained that I know of that these preamps were bad pieces.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents wors.

Ray Bronk

 

[srayle]

BIGGEST BANG FOR THE BUCK...? By far, any of Professor Lloyd Peppard's Mapltree Pre's. They use 6NS7 or 12SN& or the superb
12SX7, all big octals. I owned the mimimax with its little 9 pin tubes, and didn't care for it, no matter how much tube rolling I did.

I own 2 Mapletrees, and the last 2 I lent out to very experienced audiophile friends, they each ended up order one for themselves.
They still go for $650 to $750, and blow away anything i have put against them (including the incredibly boring AES DJH Signature preamp).
BIGGEST BANG FOR THE BUCK.

[doug s.]

best under $600 (can sell for as low as $400) - melos sha-1

best under $1200 (can sell for as low as $600) - melos sha-gold-r

best preamp period - melos ma333r, with full mods, including tube wolume pot.  ma333r's usually sell for anywhere between $1200 & $3k, depending on vintage, mods, whether or not remote, etc...

the other two can also be found w/warious mods.  the only caveat i have is be sure to get one in good shape; melos is no longer in biz, & not everyone knows how to work on these.  but, i believe gary dodd can work on 'em; dodd's first inexpensive ($450?) two input preamp was based upon the melos, if i am not mistaken.

several years back, when i was searching out a good tubed pre, i mentioned to a former melos dealer in nj that i was looking for an sha-gold-r; he said don't even bother trying the audible illusions lll or cary slp98 i was also considering, just find a melos, cuz it was so much better.  and the guy was a dealer for a/i & cary!?!  i ended up w/the ma333r, & had it modded to the tubed wolume pot prior to m.a.r.'s demise; i am done looking to try different preamps.  i did have a cary slp98 in my house at one time, prior to getting the ma333r.  it was ok, but mid-fi sounding in comparison to the melos...

of course, you can take my opinion w/a grain of salt - i have never tried another preamp in my rig since the melos.  i have heard other pre's i like in other folk's rigs, but nothing that makes me wanna rush out & try 'em in mine...

ymmv,

doug s.

[Big Jim]

I was in a similar position a while ago looking for a tube preamp. I was willing to spend for something nice and then the DIY bug bit hard. I looked at several of the kit offerings and then started examining schematics I found online.

Finally I settled on Bruce Rozenblit's Line Preamp from Glass Audio. I loved the simplicity of the schematic. It cost less than $90 to build. It is often considered the precursor to the Grounded Grid Preamp. Currently I am listening to a horn concerto and it still amazes me how good it sounds.

Several friends have compared it to their more expensive tube preamp offerings (I mean come on, everything is more expensive than $90!  ) and been very impressed. The preamp is not a world beater but it certainly causes people to rethink their audio belief system. One friend has insisted that I build him a copy.

I am offering you my experience because I think there are no hard and fast rules as to what high quality audio has to cost. It is about results that make you musically content. Too frequently I believe that people want a sense of pride not from the sonics, but from the name that is silk-screened on the faceplate and its sheer cost.

Please pardon my proselytizing and thanks for starting such a great thread. Good luck with your decision process.

[guest1632]

I was in a similar position a while ago looking for a tube preamp. I was willing to spend for something nice and then the DIY bug bit hard. I looked at several of the kit offerings and then started examining schematics I found online.

Finally I settled on Bruce Rozenblit's Line Preamp from Glass Audio. I loved the simplicity of the schematic. It cost less than $90 to build. It is often considered the precursor to the Grounded Grid Preamp. Currently I am listening to a horn concerto and it still amazes me how good it sounds.

Several friends have compared it to their more expensive tube preamp offerings (I mean come on, everything is more expensive than $90!  ) and been very impressed. The preamp is not a world beater but it certainly causes people to rethink their audio belief system. One friend has insisted that I build him a copy.

I am offering you my experience because I think there are no hard and fast rules as to what high quality audio has to cost. It is about results that make you musically content. Too frequently I believe that people want a sense of pride not from the sonics, but from the name that is silk-screened on the faceplate and its sheer cost.

Please pardon my proselytizing and thanks for starting such a great thread. Good luck with your decision process.

Hi Jim,

Right on! Jim.

Ray Bronk

[tanchiro58]

I am offering you my experience because I think there are no hard and fast rules as to what high quality audio has to cost. It is about results that make you musically content. Too frequently I believe that people want a sense of pride not from the sonics, but from the name that is silk-screened on the faceplate and its sheer cost.

Jim,

You brought in a good point here. That is absolutely true. Once again I listened to one big brand name tube preamp (it costs more than 10K) and very disappointed since it could not beat an amateur DIYer' s preamp entry level. I do not know why but it was a true and sad story.

[Imperial]

Right, I'm not gonna recommend any make of tube-pre, but a type of tube-pre.


Remember this is Imperials take on the cheapo preamp with good sound!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Tube rectified (if you can...)
- Medium to low gain (the higher gain, the more power supply-self noise... thus really less of a bang for the buck..)
- The fewest possible parts in the circuit!
- Conductive foil (alps?) or (preferably ..stepped) volume...
- Preferably no balance control, or the possibility to take it out of the circuit when not needed.
- Fewest inputs possible and outputs as well!
- Preferably with a capacitor coupled output! (blocks dc...)  (my view of course)
- NO REMOTE! Or make sure that the remote circuit does not share any regulators or psu parts with the main psu for the voltage gain stage in the pre...
- Tubes... can you fit dampers to them where they are placed? Good!
- Sockets... Can you easily replace tubes when needed?
- Auto bias is fine, but on this level of price I'm sure that manual bias can sometimes have sonic advantages! (though most pre-amps don't need this to be adjusted... granted)
- Can you easily place extra dampening pads or sheets of esr paper in the box? That would be good to!
- Does it have a well placed ac cord receptacle? Good!
- Does the internal wiring look like its laid out neatly and organized? Good too!

And to end this off... a very important thing, I think!
- Is there slowstart circuits and mute switch? That would be good too! Really good! 
- Gainmatching!!!! Don't get a pre with more gain than you need, your amp and speakers will
tell you that!!! You want to advance the volume to at least 1 or 2'O clock for maximum output in your system! And then It should not distort either!!! That would be good!
Don't get more gain than you absolutely need! You just get higher noise floor! Not more bang for your hard earned buck!
- The perceptive one will see that I don't mentions types of tubes or circuit types... Well, It does not matter! Personal choice is for the listener!!! "Anything you want. You got it - Roy Orbison"
 
Well a short list. But this is what I would think about!
But then again, I'm sort of careful in my choosing! Make that obsessively so...
This is a lot of "options", not all Pre-amps will have them, but as many as you can I think!
- Choke power supply is a bonus I think. Gives very fast response in the powersupply. Also serves a smoother for the dc...

Imperial

[weirdo]

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISA31

dont let the low price point fool, At 499.00 it might be a serious value.  I am still breaking mine in so not entirely sure but very promising sound quality to this point.  Build quality looks serious. Alps , Class A output, old fashioned loudness kick and tone defeat. Dual outputs are very convenient and a must for me. Atypical tube configuration ( small, hardwired), so rolling not possible.      

[avta]

Norh ACA2B $400 shipped to your door. I've got one. Very good value.

[lazydays]

Right, I'm not gonna recommend any make of tube-pre, but a type of tube-pre.


Remember this is Imperials take on the cheapo preamp with good sound!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Tube rectified (if you can...)
- Medium to low gain (the higher gain, the more power supply-self noise... thus really less of a bang for the buck..)
- The fewest possible parts in the circuit!
- Conductive foil (alps?) or (preferably ..stepped) volume...
- Preferably no balance control, or the possibility to take it out of the circuit when not needed.
- Fewest inputs possible and outputs as well!
- Preferably with a capacitor coupled output! (blocks dc...)  (my view of course)
- NO REMOTE! Or make sure that the remote circuit does not share any regulators or psu parts with the main psu for the voltage gain stage in the pre...
- Tubes... can you fit dampers to them where they are placed? Good!
- Sockets... Can you easily replace tubes when needed?
- Auto bias is fine, but on this level of price I'm sure that manual bias can sometimes have sonic advantages! (though most pre-amps don't need this to be adjusted... granted)
- Can you easily place extra dampening pads or sheets of esr paper in the box? That would be good to!
- Does it have a well placed ac cord receptacle? Good!
- Does the internal wiring look like its laid out neatly and organized? Good too!

And to end this off... a very important thing, I think!
- Is there slowstart circuits and mute switch? That would be good too! Really good! 
- Gainmatching!!!! Don't get a pre with more gain than you need, your amp and speakers will
tell you that!!! You want to advance the volume to at least 1 or 2'O clock for maximum output in your system! And then It should not distort either!!! That would be good!
Don't get more gain than you absolutely need! You just get higher noise floor! Not more bang for your hard earned buck!
- The perceptive one will see that I don't mentions types of tubes or circuit types... Well, It does not matter! Personal choice is for the listener!!! "Anything you want. You got it - Roy Orbison"
 
Well a short list. But this is what I would think about!
But then again, I'm sort of careful in my choosing! Make that obsessively so...
This is a lot of "options", not all Pre-amps will have them, but as many as you can I think!
- Choke power supply is a bonus I think. Gives very fast response in the powersupply. Also serves a smoother for the dc...

Imperial

Well to be honest with you, you have discribed an Odyssey Candella in many ways.
As for duplicating Roy Orbison's voice, the Candella does it well. I know because I've seen Orbison live about a half dozen times in small clubs.
gary

[Imperial]

The 12AU7 is a great tube.
Gain ratings for tubes in the 12 series:
12AX7: 100% (point of reference, gain - or "MU");5751: 70%;12AT7: 60%;12AY7: 45%; 12AV7: 41%; 12AU7: 19%
A low "mu" tube is a low gain tube... Ah! That's what that means... Yes it is! 
Blast! This tube lingo ain't easy... 
It's possible to see sort of what gain you could expect from a tube pre by which tube it uses.
This is not a rule of thumb, but can give a basic pointer...
A 12AU7 can give as low as 6db gain in a given circuit.
(Wut great for bufferstages then? Yup...)

12AU7 "family tree": ECC82, E82CC, ECC802, 5814, 5963, 6067, 6189, 6680, 7316, 7489, 7730.
I see that the Candela can NOT be used with a 12AX7... 5 times the gain of the 12AU7 as we see here...It has been made clear by Odyssey I see.
This little comparison should show easily why... 
As to if the Candela is a good pre-amp I have no clue.
Could you describe the circuit/powersupply?

Imperial

[Imperial]

Lets not be under the impression here that the lower the gain , the less noise...
This isn't so!
Now we have circuit types, loading types, number of gainstages and feedback to consider...
Some circuit types, such as the grounded grid configuration (think Wyetech labs preamps) actually
need a higher gain tube to function as intended. And the noisefloor in a wyetech is, well that's not really connected with the gain of the tube or the pre!
Also as a basic rule:
The higher the gain, the more need for feedback to be applied (this will to some degree counter the rising noisefloor) ...
So If the maker of the tubeamp says... "No feedback" -  and uses say a 12AX7 tube... then that powersupply better be pretty good!
But this is again wholly dependent on the circuit...
Perhaps it says it uses a "cathode" follower... Well, then as a rule the sound is a bit fatter, more rotundly drawn.
Stuff like that.
We need gain! Somehow the voltage must be amplified! The less sensitive speakers you have the more "gain" your source + pre + amp must provide! So were do we do the gain?
In the source? In the Pre? Or in the amp? Or... in the speaker? (That would be the sensitivity...)
I would like to point out... To amplify in the presence of the least possible noise... that's were we should do the gain in the system/setup.
Tube gear... does require a certain level of understanding by the user, to fully be able to blossom as intended!

Aiiight?

Imperial

[JoshK]

The 12AU7 is a great tube.

It is?    By what standard? 

Gain ratings for tubes in the 12 series:
12AX7: 100% (point of reference, gain - or "MU");5751: 70%;12AT7: 60%;12AY7: 45%; 12AV7: 41%; 12AU7: 19%

the % should be times, as in x, not percent, but otherwise yep.... Isn't the 12ay7 a pentode? In which case you are triode strapping for that mu?

I more or less agree with your subsequent post. 

[JoshK]

Oh and one more thing.  In a real circuit you never get gain as high as mu, it is typically only 60%-70% of the mu, depending on how high the B+ is, how large the plate load is (CCS almost gets the full mu).

[WEEZ]

What's wrong with a 12AU7?

[Imperial]

To JoshK:

Ah! Clarification!
Thanks. I thought I would sort of just make an "easy explainininin nin nin..NIH! "
But yeah, you could add a more complex picture like you did.

The 12AU7, a great tube...Well, by what standard... Give me a break! Tubes are great! That would be better to say eh? Yeah... 

Right on!
The 12ay7 is a triode... uhm, I think! 

Imperial

[stryker]

Singlepower Supra with 2 inputs and pre-out. Incredible headphone amp thrown in (it's main purpose actually). Dead quiet OTL with capacitors the size of beer cans.

Monster 6SN7 soundstage (or another tube of your choice) to boot.

No remote.

[JoshK]

What's wrong with a 12AU7?

Well, its the tube, tube diy'ers love to hate.  People use them when they want a "tubey" euphonic vintage sound because they have among the highest distortion, and high order and odd order distortion of any common audio tube in existence, followed closely by the 12ax7. 

I was being provocative and insighting dissodance.  But if you do enough reading, you will see that quite often even the unsuspecting audiophile comments how they like one design over another when on the surface all that is different is the 12a_7 is substituted with a 6sn7 for example.  I see this time and again.  6sn7 by the way is one of the lowest distortion tubes in common audio tubes. Almost no higher order distortion and very little 3rd relative to 2nd. 

There is a lot more to a tube design than the tube itself, but I see very little innovation in commercial tube designs (with some exceptions of course) where most are following similar circuits, so then the tube is the prevailing difference. 

People are free to like what they want, and I've heard plenty of 12ax7 into 12au7 into EL34 designs and they sound nice for a while.  However, they all seem to be lacking in clarity, snap and attack.