Musical Fidelity Supercharger - Is this a good idea?

Audiovista · « **on:** 31 May 2007, 01:28 pm »

From their email newsletter that I just received:
***************************************************
"The new 550K Supercharger is a low gain power amp
that is connected to the system just before the loudspeakers.
It will dramatically increase the dynamic range of almost any
system and will enable the amplifier already in the system to function perfectly.
The 550K Supercharger turns even a modest integrated amplifier into a state-of-the-art
amplification system." Antony Michaelson
***************************************************

Let's say we connect a low power SET amp to this supercharger. Do we get 550W of SE quality sound? Probably not as the damping factor plays the important role, but what do YOU think? What would be a good reason to add another component into the sound reproduction chain?

Boris

Zero · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 May 2007, 01:52 pm »

Boris,

You will notice there was no mention of maintaining the original character of the amplifier you are 'supercharging'... the statement only assures that it will still function.

Introducing what is essentially another (transistor) amplifier may have gains in dynamics - if thats your bag. But the big question is; at what expense?

Audiovista · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 May 2007, 02:10 pm »

Sean,

I agree.....two power amps cascaded.....

But they are a good company, not in the snake oil business, so what am I missing here?

Boris

sts9fan · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 May 2007, 02:19 pm »

Is this anything like Nelson Pass' F4? It seems to do the same thing but with a Preamp.
http://www.firstwatt.com/products/f4.htm

Audiovista · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 May 2007, 03:18 pm »

There are no any details yet, their website says that they will make a new product announcement tomorrow.

And front page of their site has an article touting high power amps.

www.musicalfidelity.com

robert1325 · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 May 2007, 03:26 pm »

5 wpch is enough for me !

Zero · « **Reply #6 on:** 31 May 2007, 05:55 pm »

I, along with most people - are not privy to the details of this little device. I'd imagine the primus is simple; want to jam out? Hook it up and away you fly. When you are ready to come back down to earth, take it out...

Then again, this is all a crap shoot until the details come forth.

Audiovista · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 01:24 pm »

More details now available

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 02:43 pm »

Antony Michaelson's "System Diagnostic" tool (accessed in the link above) fits my experience exactly.

Zero · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 03:36 pm »

Hmm - looks very, very interesting.

Audiovista · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 04:03 pm »

The system diagnostic tool seems to be set for ~10ft speaker distance. Numbers are scary

But ..... how does one correlate quality with loudness (louder equaling higher quality)? Seems pretty arbitrary

SET Man · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 04:09 pm »

Hey!

I skim through it.

Seem like they really do like high power. But high power aside. That Supercharger thingy doesn't make any sense to me

Why the hell would I want to put another amp between my amp and speaker?

Especially that I'm using SET amps right now.

And what's up with that System Diagnostic slide rule? High SPL equal to High Quality? Well, if is all about SPL than you just go get cheap high power amp. They are surely all about quantity rather than quality from the look of it. But I wonder how many people really listen to that kind of level at home?

Anyway, it would make more sense that if you need more power like 500 wpc than wouldn't make more sense just to get a good new 500 wpc amp than getting that and put it between your current amp?

BTW.... I have nothing against high power amp but for me 18 wpc from my SET monoblocs in to 94dB Fostex in TQWT in my small room is more than enough for me.

Take care,
Buddy

stereocilia · « **Reply #12 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 04:52 pm »

For the system diagnostic slider, am I allowed to add 3dB if I use two speakers? I guess I always assumed that loudspeaker specifications applied to each speaker, is that not true?

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #13 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 05:26 pm »

As Antony says, speaker sensitivity ratings are often fudged, sometimes to the tune of 6 dB or more. Ways of doing this typically involve quoting the number for a pair vs a single speaker and adding "room gain", as oposed to an anechoic measurement. Nothing intrinsically wrong with this if there was a measurement standard and all manufacturers adhered to it.

I think Antony is presuming the speakers are honestly rated, which is to say measured singly at one meter with no room gain, and the power listed relates to listening at 10 feet or 3 meters approximately.

As to high SPL equal to high quality, you are not reading the material carefully enough, SET Man. He does not say that, he is saying that having sufficient headroom that the amp is not clipping even briefly equates to higher quality, all other factors being equal.

I would add that it is my feeling that in order for there not to be any sensation of "strain" in the reproduction, there needs to be a minimum of 20 dB of headroom in hand over the average listing level. This means that for a system to sound relaxed at 85 dB average level (which is fairly loud) it has to be able to perform cleanly at 105 dB - not at 1 meter, but at the listening seat.

The more listening experience I get, the less tolerance I have for the sound of anything straining.

JLM · « **Reply #14 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 05:46 pm »

This is all stuff I've been preaching for years...

Amps must be sized to the speakers/room to provide a commanding grip:

Classical music average spl range 70 - 80 dB, add 30 dB for peaks

Jazz averages 80 - 90 dB, add 20 dB for peaks

Rock averages 90 - 100 dB, add 10 dB for peaks

So his stated 107 dB is inline. Some would suggest peaks are closer to 130 dB!!

Yes, you'd add 3 dB to account for 2 channels. And those of us who listen nearfield would only loss about 5 dB, so the net loss is only 2 dB.

Plus you experience room gain from reflections. I'm not sure what he's trying to say regarding how room gain affects overall efficiency.

Bottom line - for most rooms you can subtract your speaker efficiency from say 107 dB to determine the ideal dB of gain needed from your amp. This amount of power should be sufficient to protect from blown tweeters, unless you're listening way to loud to start with. Seems like a new way to encourage audiofools to spend $6000.

SET Man · « **Reply #15 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 05:58 pm »

Quote from: Russell Dawkins on 1 Jun 2007, 05:26 pm

As to high SPL equal to high quality, you are not reading the material carefully enough, SET Man. He does not say that, he is saying that having sufficient headroom that the amp is not clipping even briefly equates to higher quality, all other factors being equal.

Hey!

True. I just skim through to be honest. But I don't think I'm not the only one who feel this way.

Still I do feel that this another amp between amp and speaker scheme is kind of silly if you ask me.

Anyway, I will get out of these endless discussion about how many watts dose it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Blow Pop?

Take care,
Buddy

Tweaker · « **Reply #16 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 06:41 pm »

Is the thing going to preserve the sound of our carefully chosen amps?
I'm now supposed to hook a 550 watt amp to my speakers that are rated 10 to 100 wpc so I can listen at levels I really don't care to?

Zero · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 06:57 pm »

Quote

Is the thing going to preserve the sound of our carefully chosen amps?

If it imparted little character of its own; than wouldn't this be a story worth telling!? Imagine, introducing a transistor circuit into a chain of carefully selected components without altering the sound. Super SET's eat your heart out. Maybe if I wish really really hard the next time I see that shooting star - it'll all come true. While all evidence leads towards the contrary - I cannot caste a single stone until I've spent some quality time with the piece. Now the question is; who wants to buy it for me? *puppy eyes*

Oh and Tweaker - forget those speaker ratings. They mean next to nada.

The point of all this grunt and muscle is to handle dynamics. Having that power on tap will make a difference, even at lower listening levels. Yet finding affordable, and good sounding muscle amps is like trying to find that exotic sports car that can do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds. Ie: it just doesn't exist. Most of us own systems that are limited in dynamics. In fact, most of us (including yours truly) have probably never experienced a full bore system capable of hitting those peaks with effortless grace. So there we are, in the usual situation of living with a compromise.

WEEZ · « **Reply #18 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 07:23 pm »

Fear not, my friends. This device will get a feature article and review in Stereophile.

hmen · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 07:30 pm »

Obviously, unless they've invented the first truly transparent audio amplification device, it's going to add it's own signature to the sound. If it could make your amp sound louder without changing it's sound at all then SPL would be a measurement of quality. But I'm pretty sure that's not the case. Anyway, there are a lot of people out there that consider loudness to be a sign of good equipment. I'm sure this product would be very popular in college dorms.