[azryan]

I bought the $1,200 Musical Fidelity A3^24 upsampling DAC last Sat at a local hi-fi shop (that I'd NEVER buy anything from again, but that's a whole 'nother story!)...

Anyway... I never had any intention of keeping it. I just wanted to hear something that was supose to be totally "World Class" compared to the Outlaw 950 pre/pro that I use since I've just found that new $180 Pio universal player I got sounds at least 95% but maybe 100% the SAME as the Outlaw, and while I think both sound great in point of reference to everthing I've ever heard in my life (including many very high end mega buck systems where every piece of system was well into the 4 and 5 figures brackets) I know I hear a little dryness from both, and clinical, bit bright-ish sound that seems like a hair of possibly over emphasised detail.

I have the Acoustic Reality eARTwo digital amp, and GR Research Alphas, and think those final links in the audio chain are pretty damn good and each in the 'world class' realm.

Also I have a dedicated audio room. Large, totally symetrical room, and bass traps (which I feel I no longer need after getting the Alphas because of their even room bass loading) and had side reflection panels of fiberglass, but also feel I no longer need having tested with and without at my seated position several times.

I have one bad front to back echo that I ~85% killed w/ a large frame of fiberglass on the wall behind the speakers (covered w/ a room matching thick cloth which is why the echo's not ~100% killed).

Anyway...

I felt (and still feel) while my line level is great, there just must HAVE to be better...
Like the raves (and arguments) over ART DI/O, Scott Nixon's DAC's, battery powered dAck, assorted high end CDP's, etc....

I'm sure there's even a lot of people here who would dismiss the Outlaw and esp. the VERY cheap Pio as 'crap' w/o ever even hearing them.

As far as mainstream DACs go... I've heard rave reviews of the Musucal Fi. A3^24 upsampling DAC.
I 'think?' Tyson has just compared it to his Mensa modded ART DI/O. If I got that wrong Tyson sorry. Feel free to correct me.

So anyway...

My wife and I get home w/ it and hook it up (she doesn't really care much about audio like us forum guys do, but we did buy it and listen together and talked about what we thought we both heard).

I had no idea what to expect, and was hoping it would be freakin' AWESOME 'cuz I always want to hear 'better audio' (as I think do we all), BUT I also was NEVER going to pay $1,200 for a DAC unless it turned my whole world upsidedown or something along those lines.

I figured if it floored me I'd look much more seriously at the popular/raved about and MUCH lower priced DAC's often talked about here.

I also didn't know if the Outlaw as an analog preamp might be holding anything I plug into it back (it certainly wouldn't shock me to find out it's not the greatest single preamp of magical transparency in the universe -heh), but since the $180 Pio sounded really damn near the same that'd mean the Pio would actually sound better if not for the Outlaw degrading it, which I really doubted.
(It's one of the players Modwright -who's got a forum here on AC- is modding).

I also thought maybe the Mus. Fi DAC might sound basically the same as the Outlaw (and the same sounding Pio) and then I'd conclude that either.....
All very good DAC's basically sound the same OR....

Something pretty damn freaky was going on!?

Well... the M.F. DAC did NOT sound the same as the other two AT ALL!! There's certainly NO doubt about that!

But... that's NOT saying it sounded better...

In fact to both my wife and I felt it sounded 'worse' in almost every way! Now THAT was shocking!
Note: I am NOT making this post to claim the Outlaw nor the Pio DVD player as any specific level of quality good or bad.

My system's a little on the thin, dry, brightish side to name the only slight fault I find in it (and REALLY 'slight' IMO), but rather than this new DAC sounding rich, full, etc. improving the elements I feel are not perfectly represented in my system....

It sounded MUCH flatter, totally dead on the highs, slightly muffled in the midrange, and the low end was thick/emphasised and a bit looser/muddier. Not WAY muddier, but very clearly it was a bit looser.

We went through all the tracks on my Test CD I recently made up, and only on the track 'Everybody Here Wants You' by Jeff Buckley did it sound closer to 'different' and not blatantly 'worse'.
I think it was 'cuz there's a deep kick drum in the track which didn't sound too bad being over emphasised and his voice sounded bassier. But still to me it sounded wrong.

I know people often caution that "-You're used to YOUR system and just the fact that you're hearing something 'different' can make you think it's wrong."

In fact I've said this many times to other people myself..., but I really wasn't biased towards anything and from what I heard I just couldn't imagine that what we heard was technically more accurate from the M.F. DAC.

Let me talk cables a bit now as I'm sure some will (understandably) wonder and ask...

From the Outlaw to the eARTWo I use Outlaw's own cables. They're built really well, and IMO much better than FAR FAR FAR more expencive AudioQuest stuff. I can't say I know how the measure or make any comments about 'how the sound'. But I think good quality and a nice low price.

On the DAC I used an Outlaw optical cable from the Pio. and cheap Monster cable RCA jacks to the Outlaw's analog passthough inputs.
And on the Pio I used a cheap monster cable RCA cable (which is NOT a true digital coax) from the Pio to the Outlaw for Outlaw's own DAC's to process (I didn't compare the Pio's own output as I've already found it to be so very similar to the Outlaw's).

I know there's a lot of people (probably most) who say a coax 'sounds' better than optical, and w/o sidtracking the topic all I can say is that to me the optical and coax out the Pio sound exactly the same to me (again... the coax in NOT a true coax).

So if the DAC was held back by using the optical cable IMO, they should'nt have an optical in on the unit, OR at least they should claim in the manual that the coax sounds better and should be used if you can (I checked... they don't).

Since the RCA cable I used is not a 'true coax' I don't think people would claim it had any advantage either.

People could also say that the cheap Monster cable I used it total crap and was holding the Pio back... but again... if it is then it must ALSO hold back the Pioneer too when I use it for it's analog outs. Yet it sounds JUST like the Outlaw?

I'm not arguing for or against cables making difference... but so far... I've yet to heard any.

I believe that certain cables can sound different if they have diff. capasitance or inductance rolling off the lows or highs. In this case the crappy cables I used showed drastically diff. sound from two diff. DAC's so I think they weren't any cause (or a negligable amount) of the
flaws in how the two sounded.

On the track 'Barbarian Horde' from the Gladiator soundtrack...
Switching back and forth the Outlaw didn't sound drop dead jaw-dropping 'amazing' but the detail was FAR better than the M.F. DAC and the DAC sounded much flatter soundstaging, dead highs, overall lifeless (I think all related traits). No contest. None. I can't imagine anyone feeling the M.F. DAC was better on this track.

There's a part where some horns blast and maybe the Outlaw is slightly over-emphasising the detail a bit (I can't say "it's not"), but they were almost totally gone on the M.F. DAC, and I just can't possibly imagine that was more accurate.

I didn't like a single thing better about this 'world class' DAC, and to me it was so clearly worse -I was stunned.
Testing deep bass tracks like Alanis M.'s "Would Not Come" both went down as deep, but the Outlaw was clearly tighter.
On some things that touched what I might call the edge of 'harsh' recordings the DAC though 'deader and duller didn't sound any smoother.

My wife who I thought might be happy as she certainly didn't want me to buy more audio crap was disapointed too. She was hoping to hear something great too, despite no intention of keeping it.

I can say I would have probably sent back my eARTwo amp if I owned this DAC when I first got the amp as all the detail and reality esp. in the high end like cymbal crashes etc were totally dead and gone.

Oh yeah... as it's an upsampling DAC I had it set to 192k almost the whole time. I changed it to 96k for a bit, but I'm not sure I heard much if any difference, but I didn't really test it. It seems like those whole prise upsampling tend to think 192k is better than 96k I guess 'cuz it's 'more'.
I know I've read that upsampling CD's 44.1k to 88.2k is better as it's a clean doubling, but this DAC doesn't do it.

The only thing my wife liked a bit was that she felt the DAC was speading the sound out past the speakers in a phasey way. I didn't really hear that, but we both agreed that the imaging was blurry on the DAC, which I thought was almost totally because the upper detail was so dead, but maybe it was also the upsampling adding a little phase damage that she noticed and I didn't? I've read that upsampling can do that but I'm no E.E.

The noise floor of recordings is very clear on the Outlaw. Something I'm guessing might be 'too clear' as a tad bright and overemphasised detail (maybe), but you could still hear the same noise on the DAC but it's tone was much duller so if was far more hidden.

And while that in itself I'd call 'better' it was clearly at the expense of upper detail to a fairly extreme degree which I couldn't possibly call 'better'.

Normally I'd 2nd guess that I might've hooked something up wrong, but it's just a DAC... you have digital in, and L/R RCA out (no balanced outs -not that the Outlaw has balanced in's anyway). You can't really hook it up wrong... right?

Needless to say... it went back right away and has left me more confused than I was before over the idea of trying to get a better line level signal from assorted high-end DAC designs.

I don't know what kind of posts this might generate (if any), but I thought I'd post this really 'weird' comparrison that I just did to see if anyone has thoughts on the mattere that myself and others looking into the subject of DACs might benefit from?

Me.... I'm baffled by it!

[azryan]

BTW.... sorry for all the spelling errors!

Also, the DAC was a demo model that had been in use for several weeks at least so it was totally broken in and is all my gear.

[Juan R]

Only few comments, I have the outlaw pre and cables in my HT system, one day I changed to see how good or bad  the pre is in my music system, and IMO it's not for music, even the cables that are good for the money, but  not in the mid to high end system. You missing a lot.this pre is flat, have distortion, and hiss. I really like it in my HT because of the  versatility(input-output)

[BikeWNC]

When I heard the MF dac it also was in a system that was to my ears a bit thin.  I thought it had a lean sound of its own and thus not a great match for the components in use.  I also had the opportunity to compare my Bel Canto Dac2 to the MF dac, A/B back to back.  I thought the BC Dac2 had that bit of warmth that rounded out the system and made a positive difference.  If you think your system has a tendency to be dry or lean, then I would highly recommend a demo of the BC Dac2.  

Andy

[Rocket]

hi,

i haven't heard your outlaw preamp.

if the preamp is of poor sonic quality then you will not be able to determine how good or bad the mf dac is.

you need to improve the preamp i would say.

i can recommend the perpetual technologies p3a modwright level 1 dac as it is a huge improvement over the stock p3a.  av123 have a sale on them i believe at the moment.

you could also have dan wright mod your pioneer and i think you would be happy with the results.

start with the preamp first and then dac.

regards

rocket

[Carlman]

Some DAC's invert phase and the changes you described sound exactly like the differences in an out-of-phase situation.  I would suggest switching the speaker leads + and - connections and listen to the MF again.

I know it sounds kooky but, this may be the reason for the dramatic change.

-C

[azryan]

Juan,

"-I have the outlaw pre and cables in my HT system, one day I changed to see how good or bad the pre is in my music system, and IMO it's not for music, even the cables that are good for the money, but not in the mid to high end system. You missing a lot.this pre is flat, have distortion, and hiss.-"

Not only did I not have a 'hiss' problem on my original 950, but just for the hell of it I got the updated 'blue dot' version swapped out for free that fixed that issue for others.

I can crank the volume and put my ear to my neo panels and can't hear almost any noise at all. Certainly so low that no one could possibly hear any sitting on my couch.

Can you explain 'have distortion'? I'm sure it's not world class but the M.F. dac sounded FAR flatter soundstage.

Carlman,
I've never read the either the Outlaw nor the M.F. DAC inverted phase? That's an interesting thought, but do you think that would make the bass looser in the DAC, and the highs so rolled off? It's not like it would've been out of phase w/ itself which could then cancel out the sound.

I've only played w/ reversing phase a little in the past and some people claim they can tell the diff. and others say they can't so from that and what I've heard myself I don't think that (or that alone) was causing such a drastic difference?

[Tyson]

I've heard the MF DAC, and I dont think it was a very good DAC, but didn't say anything, mainly because I'm not in to "bashing" products.  But, IMO, lots of room for improvement there.

I did get a chance to compare the DIO to the $7500 Accuphase DP-65 this past weekend and the differences in sound were negligible.  It was in a fully treated room, with as transparent a system as I've ever heard.  The owner of the DP-65 called the Mensa a "giant killer".  I'd have to agree with him on that.

[JoshK]

Ryan,

Your findings are interesting.  I have heard both good and bad about the MF dac.  However, I wouldn't have thought it was terrible.  It made me think that maybe it wasn't broken in, but you addressed that, or that you had phase reversed, but that might not have been it either.  I can clearly hear phase differences although you might not spot it as such until you reverse it and listen again.  

It sounds like this DAC certainly didn't jive with your system, and that is a fair conclusion.  Like Rocket though, I would think that you might tackle the preamp before looking into upping your source.  I am not dissing your setup, saying it is bad, veiled or otherwise, but I have yet to hear a pre/pro that sounded good for music, but I haven't heard yours.  Comparing a good preamp to a pre/pro in your system usually helps you see right away what you were missing before.  If you got a preamp with bypass you could use both in one system for the best of both worlds.  This is what I do, except I am not using bypass per se, I am just using one set of inputs for the pre/pro into my preamp and turning the preamp volume up to use the pre/pro's remote.

[Turk]

Tyson is correct the Mensa is noticably better.  Upon an additional comparison of both  the MF DAC and MF A308 pre, the house sound of these two products is very light.  Not unpleasant, but image density and dynamic contrasts are withered.  The AVA T7 and Mensa DI/O both add image density in my system, perhaps a touch of darkness that is quite natural sounding on male voice and very pleasant.  Low level dynamic swings do suffer with the MF equipment in my system, it took the Bolder cable and AVA with additional listening to make me a believer.

In a system that is even slighty thin, light, bright  I can imagine even poorer results.  

Tyson, I have been using the Tesla JJ 12AT7s in the AVA and  I like them a lot.  Curious if you have tried a pair?

I am working to put together comments on my  Bolder Nitro Bybee interconnects, speaker cable, jumpers and the Napalm.  I am glad iIhave waited a 100 hours because they have changed quite a bit (or I have come to appreciate them greatly).

Hard to beat the Mensa +.

[azryan]

I've tried to invert the phase in my system in the past, but it takes so long to flip speaker cable that when I sit back down and play music again I didn't seem to be able to tell any diff.

I'll try again today (though I don't have the DAC here).

Tyson do you think the M.F. DAC was inverting phase?

Do you think that was making the bass looser and the mids muffled and the highs so dull?

I don't think the Outalw kicks ass, and expected it's ass to get kicked w/ the M.F. if anything.
I'm just trying to look for 'better' and even if you thought it wasn't nearly as good as the Mensa DI/O, but you think it sucked? I know there's a matter of 'taste' but it was really not even close to the Outlaw.

Also if the Outlaw sucks even as a preamp then why does the Pio sound pretty much identical to the Outlaw's own output? Would that imply that the cheap Pio is actually far better sounding but is being degraded by the Outlaw's preamp and oddly enough making it sound identical to it?

But then through that same input the M.F. DAC was pretty bad?

I just can't wrap my brain around this.
 
JoshK

"-It made me think that maybe it wasn't broken in, but you addressed that,-"

Yeah, it really should have been broken in. It had been in use at the shop for weeks at least, that's part of wanting to try a 'demo' model so I could elimnate that variable. I'd hate to think it sucked and then have people tell me -'Oh.. it's sucks when new, but it's awesome a month later'.

"-or that you had phase reversed, but that might not have been it either."
 
"-I can clearly hear phase differences although you might not spot it as such until you reverse it and listen again."

Does it totally change the tonality of the output though? I could see if maybe it was reversed and that was flattening the soundstage, but the other elements like looser/overly thick bass, and dead, rolled off highs?

Could inverted phase do that too?

And the imaging was so cloudy. That seemed like maybe a phase problem, but not 180 degree inverted phase, more like at some 'angle' and I read upsampling can cause that prob.?

"It sounds like this DAC certainly didn't jive with your system, and that is a fair conclusion. Like Rocket though, I would think that you might tackle the preamp before looking into upping your source.-"

You think a diff. preamp would make a bigger diff. than a high end DAC?

I know now I'd for SURE like to try a pure two chan. preamp AND high end DAC in my system and 'hope' that easliy kicks the crap out of the Outlaw (again... not that I actually have a problem w/ it), but I wanted to do one at a time so I had the least variables in the process. dang, this is tough!

"-I am not dissing your setup, saying it is bad, veiled or otherwise, but I have yet to hear a pre/pro that sounded good for music, but I haven't heard yours.-"

No. Yeah, I understand, and that's what I at least 'thought' too and have been looking to find better sound -though really I've heard lots of systems w/ all very high end gear and I've yet to hear better as a system overall.

I just keep thinking there must HAVE to be better!?!

"-Comparing a good preamp to a pre/pro in your system usually helps you see right away what you were missing before.-"

That makes sense, but then you need a DAC too so it's not like you can just compare a preamp on it's own. It's just a volume control, not that I'm saying it's not VERY important or anything.

"-If you got a preamp with bypass you could use both in one system for the best of both worlds. This is what I do, except I am not using bypass per se, I am just using one set of inputs for the pre/pro into my preamp and turning the preamp volume up to use the pre/pro's remote.-"

I think that's what I'd want to do also, but I wanted that to be my 'next step' after finding a killer DAC -thinking that it'd only make the DAC shine even brighter. No?

Seems like you're saying that the Outlaw as a preamp won't let a world class DAC shine 'at all'? Like it's totally negating 'all' of the DAC's quality over something so-so and more mainstream?

This is tough. I think that M.F. DAC really 'shouldn't' have sounded so clearly worse.
I feel like I'm entering the area where everybody's got a totally diff. veiw about what's 'right' and I can't seem to fit 2 and 2 together about this line level stuff?

Any technical details or things that aren't totally debatable would be helpful too I guess.

thanks!

[audiojerry]

Ryan,
From reading posts by you, I trust your listening skills, but there are a number of factors that may be problematic with your findings. If you can get your hands on better interconnect and a good preamp, you might want to experiment with that first. When you are satisfied that things sound right at that point, then maybe move upstream to your digital source. Synergy between components can't be underestimated. You will be able to hear significant differences between digital components, but not if you have problems elsewhere. Obviously, your speakers and your amplification are tip top. Power supply can really cloud the waters, also. Is your power clean/filtered? Are you separating your digital power from your analog? Good power cords and isolation are extremely important with digital.

Also, the transport can make a big difference. If your transport is mediocre, it will not allow you to hear the benefits of a good dac. I used to own a mediocre Rotel transport with a mediocre dac (can't remember the model). I brought home a very expensive $6k dac for a weekend to compare it to my dac, and I could barely hear any difference. But when I took my dac and the $6k dac to the dealer and compared it using a much better quality transport, the $6k dac blew away my mediocre dac.

Perservere, and I am confident you will joyously arrive at the right combination of gear.

[azryan]

Thanks Jerry,

About power... All the houses on the nearest transformer in my neighborhood are wired 16ga. as is my house, except my audio room is custom and has a dedicated power line that's 12ga.
As far as I've read the larger ga. is supose to supress (or help) noise from lower ga. power lines, but I dunno.

I can put my ear to one of my Neo panels and w/ the volume cranked hear only the faintest distant system 'hiss'. Totally gone if you're a foot away and obviously then way beyond inaudible at my couch ~13' away.

I don't use any power products and I have been told that the power sucks in town, but the people who've told me that seem to not be able to say anything beyond that that makes them sound like they have any proof of that or anything technical to back it up like actually testing the power.

I don't know if that's enough info to tell you anything, but that's all I've got on that.

I think my main problem is that I don't actually have a problem w/ the sound as is. I don't long for a sound of any single element of anything that I've heard anywhere else. It's only in my imagination that I can picture 'better', and in logic that I still would guess that there's significally better audio than from the pre/pro and DVD player I have.

You and others talked out a better preamp, and thinking about that I did some more testing...

Since the Pio.'s got level adjustments to balance the 6chan. outputs w/ eachother, I went into the menu and set the main L/R speakers to the minimum (-6db) and w/ the Outlaw RCA cables connected the player directly into my amp through the 2-chan outs and set the Pio to 2 chan out instead of 5.1.

No better preamp than 'none' right? Or is there a technical flaw in that logic (if you say 'yes' please relate it directly to what I'm doing and not a hardly meaningful 'generality' like saying things like "HT pre/pros aren't as musical as 2-chan preamps."

At first I could tell it was much too loud, but then I went back and set the Pio. back to the 5.1 output setting, BUT I left the 2-chan outs connected to the amp and instead of them being 'off' the signal was still there, but the output was much lower so I set the levels up to -4db (I can go to +6).

I went through much of my test CD and I thought I was hearing a 'hair' better sound. An 'nth' degree of overall clarity.
 
The noise floor seemed a lower and more natural not as bright/dry tone to recording tape hiss, and thought 'maybe' the bass was a hair tighter too but it was too hard to say.

All the great dynamics seemed to still be there and just overall sounded great any very much the same tonally as when passing through the Outlaw though the analog inputs and when the Outlaw itself is getting a digital signal.

Imaging seemed great too, but that's to say 'about the same' as I'm used to hearing here.

I also flipped the phase on the speaker cables for a short test and thought I 'might' have heard a slight diff. but wouldn't bet more than $1 on it.

I wrote down what I thought I heard, but I really have little confidence that I truly heard it so I won't bore you w/ details that might just be totally fictional. The diff. if there was one was certainly very subtle. If the M.F. DAC was inverting phase I don't think that it would have done much to change it's sound as significalty as it'd need to to sound as good as the cheap Outlaw and/or really cheap Pio IMO.

I switched the phase back and then switched back to the Outlaw (not one right after the other. There was plently of time between those two changes) going to the amp and getting a digital signal in from the cheap RCA cable (which as I said ain't a true coax dig. cable).

I realized right away that I had actually been listening to the Pio. at a lower level than I normally listen to the Outlaw. At least 5db-7 tops.

So turning the Outlaw down -6db seemed to give me the exact same sound as Pio direct to amp so that pretty much threw out everything I 'thought' I heard when it was Pio direct into eARTwo!

Yeeesh!

If the Outlaw is damaging the signal.... it ain't much at all IMO, if any diff. can even be heard at all.

I think then most people would say that's because I don't have a good DAC hooked up to it. But it ceraintly sounds much better than the S'Phile class A M.F. DAC did (not that that means jack to me, but I think it at least says that it's high end).

It was really interesting to hear what did and didn't happen when I messed w/ all those connections and levels.

Also mentioned is the quality of transport which was the cheap Pio. in all cases.
Can anyone tell me how it might be damaging the signal in it's digital output? 'Jitter' is the only possible 'damage' right?

Can someone show me that the Pio is causing massive audible jitter on the line that is degrading the signal 'before' it gets processed to analog?
I know S'Phile has a program for measuring 'jitter', and I've read about the amount of jitter that 16 bit PCM and 24 bit PCM should have as to no be audible. It's a pretty confusing subject though to me.

I wonder if this is considered a scary subject for people. As in... maybe people like being sure they're hearing GREAT diffrences in things that are actually very subtle or possibly even exactly the same in certain cases?

Some have said my Outlaw cables aren't that good, but that in itself doesn't say anything really.  

No one wants to look dumb (I guess I'm used to it by now and don't mind! heh), but maybe the only thing I could get from here is 'different' and not blatantly, obviously, without question 'better'?

There are several killer looking ~$400-600 2-chan preamps out there now and several raved about little DACs that are ~$250-600.
I'd love to try them and hear if any of those combos kick the crap out of what I'm using now, but I just can't imagine that there's that much damage that's in the audio that I'm hearing?

This is one crazy hobby! That's at least something I'm sure of! heh

[MaxCast]

You could get on the Bolder AudiotionPak list and try the MENSA and digital cables.  Don't know how long the wait is though.
If you are not happy with the DAC I'd  take it back.

[audiojerry]

Well Ryan, I don't think anyone could accuse you of not being thorough!
It is possible that you are near the apex of achieving the best sound you could hope for. The law of diminishing returns is definitely there in high-end audio. But I have a feeling you are not ready to give up yet. I can't give you a precise answer to any of your questions, but if you can audition a good isolation transformer, and some good isolation devices like Aurios, I believe you will notice worthwhile improvements. Also experiment with interconnects - including digital. I don't know how good or bad your preamp is. Even when you tried to take your Pioneer out of the picture, I think it was still putting things in the signal path that might be corrupting the transparency. You should try to audition other 2 channel preamps.

Finally, is it possible you have become too analytical? Sometimes, when I'm trying too hard to listen to components instead of the music, I often end up full of doubt and second guessing myself to the point where I didn't think I could differentiate anything. It usually helps to just go away from it for a day or two, and when I return I try to focus just on the music and listen to one setup for at least 30 minutes to an hour before changing components. When I'm done, it's usually clear which setup I enjoyed more.

Done this way, it boils down to pure musical pleasure and involvement as the determining factor instead of trying to analyze individual aspects or specific traits. As an example, I spent a rather frustrating several weeks auditioning a component called Triphazers (which attach to speaker terminals like Bybees). After a couple of weeks I could not cite one thing that the Triphazers improved, but for some reason I found myself enjoying my music listening a lot more. After a couple of weeks, I thought perhaps there was no correlation between my new found enjoyment and the Triphazers, so I took them out of the system. Maybe it was my imagination, but I could not stand listening to my system without the Triphazers, so I put them back in and stopped concerning myself about my lack of analytical skills. All I knew was that if I enjoyed the music so much, then the Triphazers were worthwhile. Maybe you need to spend more time with a component just trying to enjoy the music before you make a judgement.        

If in the end, you can't honestly say that the music was more meaningful, then why bother changing the component?

PS: I'm going to be in the Phoenix/Tucson area this winter. If you live anywhere near there, I'd really like to get a chance to listen to those Alpha's.

[nathanm]

Excellent stuff Audiojerry!  That's a post worthy of framing!  The psychological effects of this hobby are not given enough attention, I think.  The placebo effect is an extremely strong one, and I think the more aware one is of it, the better off they'll be.

Have you tried wire damping, Azryan?  A roll of rope caulk and a bag of wire staples is dirt cheap, and could provide hours of tweaking fun! And don't underestimate the gains achieved by a liberal dose of expanding foam sealant into your ceiling.

[randytsuch]

azryan,
after going though all that trouble of taking you outlaw out of the loop, I thought of a reason why it might not help.

If your pioneer is controlling the volume in the digital world (which is what it sounds like), than when you reduce volume, you are actually losing information.  Think of it as taking a big number, then cutting off the bottom half of it to make it smaller.  You made the number smaller (for lower volume), but you lost all the information in the bottom half of the number.

One other piece of advice that someone smarter than me came up with, if you change pieces of gear, and can't hear a difference, it may not be because those pieces of gear are not different.  It may be that something else in your system is holding the better piece of gear back, so you can't tell that one piece is better than the other.  In other words, your system is only as good as it's weakest link.  Given your system, I would suspect the outlaw or pioneer, but that's just my guess.

Last thought.  There was a thread at HD a while ago, on building a "passive preamp" from a pot and a couple resistors.  Very simple, and it was cheap to build.  I built one I used to use, before I built a TVC, and it's sounds better than it should, for the cost and effort.  Something to consider.

Randy

[azryan]

"-Well Ryan, I don't think anyone could accuse you of not being thorough!-"

Hehe, well I'm just so used to people posting something quick and simple and then other people have to post about 25 questions that need answering before they can even attempt a helpful answer so I try to 'lay it on the line' so hopefully that stuff's avoided, but yeah... Long-winded 'eh? Sorry.

"-Even when you tried to take your Pioneer out of the picture, I think it was still putting things in the signal path that might be corrupting the transparency. You should try to audition other 2 channel preamps.-"

Huh? I took the Outlaw out of the chain. The Pio. as it's the CD player always had to stay in. I could see trying other preamps, but connecting the Pio. to the amp eliminated 'any' preamp. I guess I was thinking that totally eliminating a preamp link is as pure or more pure than 'any' preamp?

"-Finally, is it possible you have become too analytical?-"

No.... I've 'always' been too analytical! hehe
Seriously, when I'm doing a 'test' type thing I feel it's best to act as computer-like as possible and just take in 'data' whatever it may be.
Keeps me unbiased as I can be- I REALLY hope!

I'm totally not a 'all the stuff I own is the best' type of guy either. I know there's people on here that tend to steer that way -even when they keep 'upgrading' things. And I wonder if the 'upgrading' isn't just making things 'different' but then helping them feel they're constantly 'improving' things?
The cycle of the upgraditis disease?

Anyway... analytical is cold and unfeeling and ignores totally the emotion of the music.

Why would I think that's 'good' then!?
'Cuz at 'those times' I'm only looking to hear actual differences. If I find diffs. then I let myself 'feel' what's playing.
I don't have any exp. like you've described where you couldn't describe it but you just found those triphazers to have made things better.
I'm totally NOT saying that it's not real, just that I've never had that happen to me, and I'm still more on the 'if it's better you can measure it' side of the fence though open to discovering everything I know to be true to be a total lie.

We're all holograms in an alien video game, and some jerk kid is screwing w/ us by changing the way audiio cables sound! heh. demented.

Anyway... like when I 'thought' that the Pio. direct into the amp sounded better I was almost brought to tears by the heart-wrenching track 'You and I' buy the late Jeff Buckley.

And actually I was like -"Damn! That never hit me that hard! The Outlaw MUST be slapping the signal around at least a little bit!?", but like I said -when I went back to the Outlaw I found I was listening a bit quieter on the direct to amp test and turning down the Outlaw sounded the same to me.
I suckered myself for a moment there! heh

I know they say 'louder typically sounds better' to people, but I think maybe in my case I was lowering the noise of the recording (by plain and simple just listening 'quieter') and it made that noise more hidden which then I think made the music seem more real?

I know the revised 'blue dot' (as they call it) Outlaw pre/pro has 6db more gain than the original (which I swapped my original one for for free months ago), and the eARTWo's got a pretty typicalish ~28db gain I think, and the Alphas are equal to about a 99db point source from my ~13' distance so maybe I'm just not pushing the outputs of either the Pio or the Outlaw very hard and that's diminshing damage that would otherwise be clear if say I had little ineffi. monitors (no offence to little monitor owners)??

Are the outputs of line levels just as effected by levels as amps are? 'Cuz I'd guess that I'm not pushing the headroom of line or speaker levels.

It's only when things are REALLY loud that I get that bit of brightish, dryish sound feeling, which is probably bad for my ears anyway so I sohuld probably just not do that.

I hear what you're saying about just kicking back and listening too. I don't try to force myself to hear or not hear changes or anything like that. I just 'do somethin' and see (hear) what happens.
That M.F. DAC was a clear and obvious diff. compared to these much cheaper DACs bundled into a pre/pro and DVD player. Not that it sound so bad, but it sounded very imbalanced and dull, flat, etc..

Going from a mid-level Denon Rec. as a pre/pro (which was always meant to just be temporary) to the Outlaw 950 was an instant and BIG diff (for the better). It took literally 10-30 seconds to hear a drastic overall improvement.

Going from the Newform Research 645's to the Alphas was a clear though not earth-shattering improvement -esp. on the lower end (as it was quite a bit more transparent/open and blended seamlessly w/ the upper end) and a subtle but still clear improv. on the upper end going from the quasi-ribbons to planars.

"-I'm going to be in the Phoenix/Tucson area this winter. If you live anywhere near there, I'd really like to get a chance to listen to those Alpha's.-"

Everyone in AZ lives in the Phx or Tucson area! hehe P.M. me when you get closer to whenever you trip is.

Nathan,

I know you like to make jokes at times (which I usually catch and laugh at) but I can't tell if you're serious about the rope caulk and expanding foam? heh

My ceiling is totally packed w/ standard yellow fiberglass insul. above my audio room. There's nothing else in that area. Does that mean anything to you vs. expanded foam?
Also 40% of the room's walls are drywall/fiberglass/2x4 and 60% are perform panel which are 12" thick ploystyrene/concrete (85%/15%) w/ pure concrete poured into re-bar brased channels in the blocks. killer stuff.

'IF' you're serious about the rope caulk, are you saying to wrap all my wires in caulk to sheild them all?

[azryan]

Thanks Randy,

I agree w/ what you're saying about the Pio. levels digitally cutting off bits, but those bits are in the bottom of the noise floor right? And it's the same thing when you do it analog w/ resistors right, like w/ that passive preamp? no?
(btw... I am considering building a passive pre like that. thanks.)

Or like... if you can hear a ceiling fan or fridge or outside traffic. Then technically your noise floor just lost a few 'bits' (6db is a 'bit') in depth right even though it's analog change?

"-It may be that something else in your system is holding the better piece of gear back, so you can't tell that one piece is better than the other.In other words, your system is only as good as it's weakest link.-"

Well put. I totally agree. I certainly considered and still consider that point through all this.

"-Given your system, I would suspect the outlaw or pioneer, but that's just my guess.-"

Certainly my guess too and my whole point of looking into a 'better' line level than I have even though I'm perfectly happy w/ how this sounds now.

I tried to eliminate (as much as possible) the Pio by using it as a transport only and running that $1,200 DAC into the Outlaw's analog preamp section. Not good at all.

So then if the Outlaw's preamp section sucks I ran the Pio. as DAC and transport direct into the amp. It seemed exactly the same which makes me think the Outlaw as preamp isn't doing damage?

And if the Pio sucks as a transport then it seems weird that the Outlaw sounds the same getting a digital signal from the Pio. as from taking the Pio's own analog output?

My brain's melting, but then again... it IS 111degrees here!

[Oxia]

Azryan,

When you wrote that you tried plugging your Pioneer CD player directly into your amplifier, it made me wonder about the Pioneer's ability to properly drive the eARTwo. I recall that the eARTwo is rather finicky about preamps, due to its rather lowish input impedance of 8500 ohms. Generally, a ratio of 10:1 between input impedance to output impedance will safely ensure that there will be no high-frequency rolloff. That would suggest that you're fine as long as the source driving your amp has an output impedance of around 850 ohms. However, note that the 10:1 ratio is not a "hard" rule and there can be exceptions. (BTW, I drive my eARTwo with a Morrison ELAD, which has an output impedance of only 30 ohms.)

I don't know if this is necessarily the case with your Pioneer, and I don't mean to be picking on it unfairly, but many consumer CD players have cheap output stages that use low quality opamps and will have an output impedance well in excess of 1kohm. However, without knowing your CDP's model, I cannot verify if this is true in your case. I also have no idea what the output impedance of your Outlaw is either, but if there's an impedance mismatch, it would explain why you perceived such dissapointing performance even when using the MF DAC, which by most accounts is a high quality DAC.