Phono cartridges

plaf26 · « **on:** 29 May 2007, 02:30 pm »

Now that the Longhorn Grado is no longer available (except as a DIY project), are there any suggestions for phono cartridges that would nicely complement the T8? What about MC vs. MM?

Toka · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 May 2007, 03:11 pm »

What budget are we looking at? The Audio-Technica AT-440MLa is one of the best around at any price, but its price ($90 or so, maybe less) makes it a world-beater. The MM vs. MC debate is largely pointless, as there are good and bad examples for both. A high-output MC is a nice way to split the difference. It all really comes down to your setup, and music preference (and desire to tweak if need be).

gooberdude · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 May 2007, 05:24 pm »

I 2nd the AT 440 MLa, it replaced a Grado Gold (w/Longhorn mods) and i'll never look back.

Even after all the tweaking (AVA tweaks) its apparent to me that the Prestige body cartridges have serious flaws...

WEEZ · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 May 2007, 07:51 pm »

I'd be interested to hear Wayner's take on this, as he owns a 440 MLa and a Gold, I think. The AT sounds nothing like a Grado, that's for sure. Whether it's 'better' or not, is debateable. It tracks better with most arms than a stock Grado. But in an appropriate arm, a Grado sounds more like music to me. Not as thin.

Or you could pay $1k for a Cartridge Man Music Maker...which is a reworked Grado. Nice, but not $1k nice.

WEEZ

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** 29 May 2007, 08:10 pm »

I have the earlier generation, AT440ML/OCC...so I base my comparison on that...not the newer AT440MLa (I don't know what exactly changed with the new version except voltage output).

As WEEZ noted - the Grado (Green, in my case) sounds more like live music - despite the poorer tracking performance. Much is made of Grado's midrange, and it is quite nice, I find the treble to be more technically correct, as well.

The oft-mentioned 'flubby' Grado bass is well handled by good arm damping.

The Grado's are far more fussy than the AT's, but worthwhile of efforts over the AT. They just sound more like music to me (and WEEZ).

That said, for $90, the AT440MLa is a standout and I can imagine as many or more folks thinking it's a better value at any price over the Prestige Grado's. The Grado's just need a lot of tweeking to get right.

But, plaf26, the choice of the AT440MLa is probably a more reliable choice for you to venture back or further into vinyl with.

My time spent getting the Grado Green to sound good is chronicled here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=32272.0

As for MM vs. MC....that's a mite complicated question, indeed

Wayner · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 May 2007, 10:07 pm »

Yes, I am fond of the AT440MLa and have been accused of being the company "pimp" which I am not. aa On the other hand, I own the AVA Grado Green and did a DIY Longhorn on the Gold. I like the AT on my Empire and VPI. It tracks better because the arms on these 2 machines are so damn massive and stiff, being not very compliant at all. However, I have either the Grado Green or Gold in my Harmon Kardon T25 and the cartridge tracks beautifully. The Grado's lower end is a foundation you could build a house on. That's my take. When the bass is done right and the cartridge is allowed to track correctly, the sound is very well balanced, beautiful in fact especially thru the T8.

The last time I visited Frank, I brought my Grado Gold Longhorn with me premounted to my HK headshell. It fit right into Frank's Harmon Kardon T30 with only a slight weight adjustment. Well, the grado kicked butt thru Franks T8/550ex and HT-3s. He had a new record that he had got at the show in Michigan and put that on. There was a lot of percussion and piano in this pressing (180 gram, I think), and the Grado walked right through it. It was impressive, to say the least.

I'm not going to paint an audio tapestry of what the cartridge sounded like, I'm an engineer. Can't spell either. But the cartridge equation is that it is an equation. The table, tone arm, motor and their respective adjustments, damping and compliance are all critical to good sound. Put the best cartridge in a poorly set-up machine and you get crap. Spend the time learning the geometry and physics of the table and make the appropriate settings and the Grado will bring tears to your eyes. Ear candy, for sure.

No, the Grado won't work on every machine. That is why I have the ATs. It is a great sound for these hard to fit tables, nice midrange and with any Dire Straight album, plenty of solid bass.

As far as spending big bucks on tables and carts.............

WEEZ · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 May 2007, 11:43 pm »

Wayner, do you have a PT-9 on your VPI?...if you do, a Grado will play beautiful music with a little damping fluid applied...

rustneversleeps · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 May 2007, 06:34 am »

I have a Grado red (without any horn) on my Thorens TD-125MKII's SME 3009 series II tonearm, it sounds open, detail, dynamic, and with great sound stage.

I just put a Sumiko Oyster on my Empire 598, it sounds detail, with great midrange, could use bit more extended high.

I've never like the Audio Technica, it's my personal prejudice, because in the 70's, their average priced cartridges were junk.

I'll put a Ortofon moving coil (my first MC) on my Pro-Ject 6.1 when I have time, I expect better sound from it, since all the MC hype, you know.

Wayner · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 May 2007, 11:43 am »

Rusty,

the ATs have evolved from the 70s to a very respectable performance level. Many AC members remark at the quality vs cost ratio. Try an AT440MLa sometime. Forget the AT95 (tracks way to heavy).

WEEZ,

I have no idea what model arm it is but it is an Audioquest. It could be a PT-9. It does have the screw-off top on the pivot assembly with the brass fluid cup inside. What do you use for damping fluid?

W

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 May 2007, 03:22 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 30 May 2007, 11:43 am

WEEZ,

I have no idea what model arm it is but it is an Audioquest. It could be a PT-9. It does have the screw-off top on the pivot assembly with the brass fluid cup inside. What do you use for damping fluid?

W

Wayner,

Silicone fluid...anywhere from 10,000 to 60,000cst (it's a bit of a guessing game). Turntablebasics.com and TowerHobbies.com (used as differential fluid on radio/remote control vehicles) have it in stock. TowerHobbies is the cheapest I know of.

Or, I've got 2 or 4 oz. bottles of 30,000 and 50,000cst silicone fluid here (bought from TowerHobbies long ago) - just PM me your address and I'll send a vial of each to you to try out.

The difference, as WEEZ noted, with the Grado's might be startling for you with damping

WEEZ · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 May 2007, 03:52 pm »

Wayner, like TCG said, it's just silicone fluid. I use 30,000 cst.

www.turntablebasics.com/silicone.html

WEEZ

plaf26 · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 May 2007, 04:06 pm »

I take it the general feeling where AT is concerned is that the OC9 and the 150mlx (both with the same micro-ridge stylus as the 440mla) aren't worth the extra $$$.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 May 2007, 05:14 pm »

plaf26,

If you go the AT440MLa route, you can buy the 150MLX replacement stylus and it will fit on the 440 body (perfectly - confirmed by AT in Ohio long ago).

The 440 fitted with the AT150MLX stylus would be little different from one another....it will lack the mu-metal shielding of the stock 150MLX, but not much else different between the two.

At the price the 440 is, it's hard to merit the upgrade to the 150MLX at 3x the price for (mostly) the mu-metal shielding internally and a boron cantilever over a good aluminum one on the 440.

John / TCG

Wayner · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 May 2007, 09:44 pm »

WEEZ,

Thanks for the website posting. I guess I will have to venture in a new direction with the VPI.

John, TCG

Thanks for the offer. I left a PM for you.

Wayner

Wayner · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 May 2007, 10:43 pm »

By the way........

Does anyone know which AudioQuest tone arm this is?

W

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 May 2007, 11:14 pm »

Wayner,

Don't know myself...but you might want to check here http://www.vinylengine.com/library.php?make=Audioquest to see all the manuals (or at least mounting patterns) on the various Audioquest PT arms.
John

WEEZ · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 May 2007, 01:03 am »

Wayner, it's not a PT-9...looks like an early PT-6. The link TCG provided shows a '9' in every picture.

At any rate, (and I know I've said this before on other vinyl threads and circles) the Audioquest arms are the real deal. They are (were) made by Jelco. So were the Linn Basic; Sumiko Premier MMT and FT3; and the Graham Robin...among a few others. All of these are great arms for a reasonable price. The arm damping is a great feature. The '9' series has 'better' internal wiring and bearings than previous models; and most closely resembles the Premier FT3. Other options were the lead out cables which turned the '6' into a '7' or '8'...and a '9' into a '9+' or '9' extreeme. The last premium version was the DBS cabled version. (questionable value

)

Sadly, Audioquest is no longer offering these arms. I only hope that someone picks up U.S. distribution for Jelco. In the meantime, anyone who wishes to get one of these should act fast. Elusive Disc has bought out the remaining stock. www.elusivedisc.com

I might just order one for 'future' use

.

(Frank, hope you don't mind the 'sales pitch'

...but since you're not in the cartridge/arm business....)

WEEZ

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 31 May 2007, 01:07 am »

oops, I didn't even realize this was Frank's circle

...sorry, Frank.

Wayner · « **Reply #18 on:** 31 May 2007, 11:38 pm »

I'm sure most of us "older folks" understand the nuances of owning and setting up a turntable. For the new vinyl guys I would just like to add that a table is NOT plug and play. That sounds harsh, but many in these circles can tell you the many hours it takes to get a table purring just right. First is the hurdle of overcoming the geometry of arc vectors from a tables tone arm and how the stylus must be located. Baerwald's curve is a good place to start to read about the subject. Just google it and start reading. Once you understand why and where your stylus should be comes the crazy part of making all of the physics work in the stylus's favor...not an easy task at all. Damping is a major issue. Vibrating parts ususally are bad and must be stopped. Vertical tracking Angle is another hurdle to overcome. fiddle, fiddle, and more fiddle. Don't forget the cartridges' offset angle and recommended tracking weight. There have also been many little DIY's from guys like John, TCG, Zero One and WEEZ, many others.

Frank's Longhorn mod for the Grado cartridges is a fantastic invention. The problem is that not all turntables are designed that well and overcoming their difficulties requires alot of understanding and execution in the correct direction.

Perhaps we need to have some folks speak up about which models of tables work well with the Longhorn (when the table is properly set up) and which ones seem to be more difficult to tame.

I have heard Longhorn and it is grand! The AT440MLa is the cartridge to use when you fail to tame your table as I have on a couple of occasions. I will find out the cause of the problem, but it will take some more thought and experimentation.

gooberdude · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Jun 2007, 01:21 am »

The Longhorn worked great with my Pro-Ject Expression/Grado Gold. No doubt about it - until i began using Herbie's LP puck...then i was running toward the TT at the end of every side, not fun. Without a puck or clamp involved, it was 100% & a 'must do'. You need about an inch of clearance over the Label (at the end of an LP) to be safe with a Longhorn...

Wayner is spot on that it takes a while to get a hold on all the adjustments. i owned my TT for almost 4 years and only recently discovered azimuth.

I have to disagree about the 440MLa being an easy set-up, at least for my TT. It sounded a bit weird, thin i guess, until the azimuth -overhang-VTA, etc, etc was just right. Once that happened though, i felt like the blind Dom Perignon as he tasted champagne for the first time...seeing stars.

With my TT, the Grado Gold was much simpler to get good sound. and the bass, damn you joe grado!!

Someone needs to combine the attirbutes of Gold with the 440MLa into a MM cartridge and sell it for $150 US or less. aa