[2bigears]

Paul,that's kinda what i thought.gotta buck-up.one more painful dusting off the old wallet.dang

[richidoo]

There are ways around this.  Can't say too much just yet.  We'll have something out soon that will be an excellent solution to the 2 channel environment.
Bryan

Looking forward to trying it!
Thanks Bryan
Rich

[Ethan Winer]

Diffusion seems to be recommended far less than absorbtion for small audio listening rooms.

Yes, good diffusors cost a lot more to make than bad ones. All of the cheap diffusors I've heard sounded noticeably worse than a bare wall. So when someone wants good results but can't spend $2,000 just for diffusors, absorption is a good second choice. Versus cheap diffusors.

I'll also comment on the membrane issue. RealTraps bass traps have a plastic non-porous membrane that is bonded to the rigid fiberglass behind the front fabric. We are the only company I know of who does this. To paraphrase Bryan, "Not to take anything away from GIK because their products work." But the GIK stuff does not have a membrane. The front fabric of GIK panels is heavy canvas, which may have a similar effect, but it's definitely not the same as the separate membrane we use. We also offer our panels in non-membrane styles for when absorption at higher frequencies is appropriate. I'm not aware of any other company that offers both styles based on what is needed in a given situation.

There are other differences between RealTraps and other manufacturers, but there's no need to belabor that here. I'm good friends with Bryan and Glenn and, first and foremost, we all have the common goal of spreading the word on the importance of room acoustics and treatment.

--Ethan

[Glenn K]

Diffusion seems to be recommended far less than absorbtion for small audio listening rooms.

Yes, good diffusors cost a lot more to make than bad ones. All of the cheap diffusors I've heard sounded noticeably worse than a bare wall. So when someone wants good results but can't spend $2,000 just for diffusors, absorption is a good second choice. Versus cheap diffusors.

 

--Ethan

Hold on to your hat there Mr Winer the days of diffusion products that cost a arm and leg are coming to a END. We have something new that works OUTSTANDING (may I add looks cool as hell)  coming VERY SOON.  aa

[Glenn K]

Diffusion seems to be recommended far less than absorbtion for small audio listening rooms.

 

 


There are other differences between RealTraps and other manufacturers, but there's no need to belabor that here. I'm good friends with Bryan and Glenn and, first and foremost, we all have the common goal of spreading the word on the importance of room acoustics and treatment.

--Ethan

Well thanks for only slapping  us just a little there Winer. You’re a hell of a guy. 

Just to point out, 
We DO NOT use a heavy canvas. Our fabric was hand picked and does help act as a membrane, but also the way the panel is built with the air gap in the back with different fabric from the front, it helps absorb more low end. MORE then ANY OTHER panel on the market.    We have spent a great deal of time and money to have them tested and they stand on those tests.  aa Membrane or not they are the best value on the market and we stand behind that. Heck Bob Katz just put them in his room!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Don't worry Ethan your product is ok also. 

Glenn

[nathanm]

Definitely go see Heavey Canvus live if you can. I saw them play in Chicago a few years ago and they totally rocked!

[richidoo]

It's good to hear you brag a little Ethan.  You deserve it!

Looking fwd to the new stuff Glenn!! You got me wondering now! I will hold off on immediate plans to buy more stuff until I hear more.

I wish acoustics was a more important part of audiophile's shopping list. Acoustic products certainly have their own price/performance curve with a point of diminishing returns just like cables and CD players, but dollar for dollar it is so much more valuable than any other tweek. Maybe it will start to catch on a little more as HT revolution continues to expand. Stereo listeners would bite too if visual impact of effective treatment was not so severe. Low visual impact stuff like those little triangle pillows seem to be popular, but not as effective as more visible treatments. Usually the living/family/bonus room is the biggest and best stereo room in the house, but still under momma's control. It took me 6 months of daily brainwashing to get my wife to finally give in.    
haha
Rich

[bpape]

ROTFL! Nice Nathan

Ethan/all

What a membrane is made of can certainly change it's performance parameters.  However, just because one product has a bonded plastic membrane behind the cloth does not make it any better/worse than any other membrane absorber purely due to that fact.  Heck, bonding FSK facing to a piece of fiberglass yields some membrane effect.  Having a piece of vinyl stretched tight but not bonded and not damped has a membrane effect.  Using plywood over a sealed air cavity with fiberglass in the center has a membrane effect.  All of those are membranes but they all will react very differently.  

The point of my initial post was to point out that our panels also have a heightend absorbtion rating in the bottom end and a reduced absorbtion rating at the top end to avoid being overly dead in the highs - another advantage of a membrane.  My goal was not to start a pi$$ing contest between vendors at all or to hype our product over Ethans but simply to point out the facts of how our product works - regardless of whether or not it's built the same as a competitors, and to invite people to look at the test results and compare for themselves.

Bryan

[1000a]

Hold on to your hat there Mr Winer the days of diffusion products that cost a arm and leg are coming to a END. We have something new that works OUTSTANDING (may I add looks cool as hell)  coming VERY SOON. 

I can't wait- please keep this post active. 

Usually the living/family/bonus room is the biggest and best stereo room in the house, but still under momma's control. It took me 6 months of daily brainwashing to get my wife to finally give in.   
haha
Rich

there is presently no momma to brain wash, but even for me there flat out is not any space for anymore stuff, without it in the walkway.  Now hiding it and then placing it as I listen, if its not a major project is do-able.

[Glenn K]

Definitely go see Heavey Canvus live if you can. I saw them play in Chicago a few years ago and they totally rocked!

 
Fixing now!!

[Ethan Winer]

Bryan,

Heck, bonding FSK facing to a piece of fiberglass yields some membrane effect.

You bet, and our first run of MiniTraps were based on FRK rigid fiberglass, before we switched to our current construction which works even better.

My goal was not to start a pi$$ing contest

Of course, and same here. There are a lot of differences between your products, our products, tube traps, what RPG sells, and so forth. I agree it's not appropriate for you or me or any other vendor to argue about this stuff when, as I said, we all have a more important common goal of just getting people to understand they need bass traps in the first place! I really wish acoustic treatment was popular enough that stores would carry them. Then people would be able to see first hand exactly how they differ, just as they can when auditioning loudspeakers and other gear.

--Ethan

[ctviggen]

I like the RPG stuff, but it's outrageously expensive.  Check out the room at the bottom of this ad, though:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1183931697

[Glenn K]

I like the RPG stuff, but it's outrageously expensive.  Check out the room at the bottom of this ad, though:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1183931697

those look really cool, but for the same money you can get Ethans stuff and it will work better. I believe his is 6" deep.

Glenn

[bpape]

Absolutely Ethan. 

Bryan

[richidoo]

FWIW, You are all gentlemen as always, and I didn't see any piss flying! It is helpful to hear you compare your products.

1000a, if you have walls and ceiling corners still unoccupied, you can still jam more good audio stuff in there. 

[1000a]

cool can't wait to cram more stuff into my 11x14 living room den great room listening room, I finally bought my first really nice piece of furniture 2 yrs ago and I'm gonna make it look like my dorm room circa 77.

well there is no current women to piss off and I do a damn good job of it just being me.

maybe some oversized acoustically inert Barney stuffed animals say 4 foot tall and start a day care    

I am heading down the room treatment road all in good time.

I mean no harm sometimes I just gotta laugh at this stuff, I have currently 10 boxes with wires, manuals, tubes, empty vertical audio rack and such in the middle of the small dinning area, its great to be a guy.  Too bad women will just not let us be us.

[srlaudio]

We are definitely in the diffusion camp.  We have solved bass problems with proper diffusers!!!!  The most acoustically advanced control room in Nashville uses no bass traps, all diffusion and is getting rave reviews.  It belongs to George Massenburg.  A critical ear, for sure.

[warnerwh]

The bottom line is room treatment is a VERY worthy endeavor. I consider it a priority now knowing how much it affects the sonic presentation. Room acoustics can make of break ANY system, even a 100,000 one.  If your system costs more than about 2k then you need room treatments. If you spent way more then the cost to benefit is excellent. The improvement is or can be better than buying speakers that cost twice as much. You're better off with the half as expensive speakers in a room with good acoustics, the system in there will sound better.

So if you planned on 5k, spend at least 2 or 3k. If your system retails for 10k or more then the investment will be something you'll wished you'd done long ago. The improvement is far superior to swapping electronics and certainly wire. It amazes me how much money is spent trying to fix the sound of one's system buying gear when the problem is the ROOM.  The frequency response of the average room is horrible. The room does more damage than a 5 year old let loose with a graphic equalizer in your system. This is measurable fact!

[Ethan Winer]

If your system costs more than about 2k then you need room treatments.

LOL - IMO if your system cost more than $100 you need room treatments.



--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

Allen,

We are definitely in the diffusion camp.  We have solved bass problems with proper diffusers!!!!

But don't your diffusors also provide some amount of bass trapping? That seems the ideal solution to me. Diffuse from the mids and up, and absorb below.

The most acoustically advanced control room in Nashville uses no bass traps, all diffusion and is getting rave reviews.  It belongs to George Massenburg.  A critical ear, for sure.

Most advanced or most expensive to build?

I haven't heard that room so I can't fairly comment. But I'm willing to bet $100 that nobody reading this is willing to invest enough to build what George did. For anyone here who does not know about this room, a photo is below. I believe the "sticks" are about a yard long.

--Ethan