AudioCircle...thoughts on Trading Post and Industry Ads

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 16 May 2007, 07:00 pm »

I guess we should mention and ask at this point something discussed recently with JohnR.

The Trading Post and Industry Ads system here on AudioCircle is a bit chaotic and not really easily navigable to sell goods....but it works mostly because it's free and, well, you are here anyhow. I've sold 4 of my last 5 items here...so it really does work. But, selling on Audiogon (and AudioXSell) is much more professionally oriented.

There are pricey programs to use that you can set up a web store for buyers and sellers or audio/video gear. But, it's very time consuming (for JohnR, mostly) to set up and costly. It is so costly that we cannot even think of it in the current hobbyist mode we operate AC on now...the generous support of our Manufacturers here and an occasional volunteer fund drive simply is not enough to cover it all.

IF we set something up in the future...it would have to be a pay system of sorts. Is $3 per ad worthwhile? Is 0.5% of listing price under, say $1000, 0.4% of price $1000+, 0.25% $5000+ fair (that is, graduated pricing scale). I'm really just throwing out ideas / numbers to get a convo started. Maybe, free ads under $50 total value of listing.

Another idea tossed around was to team up with AudioXsell and let them handle it all....as they already have the framework in place to do it. Those folks seem to be trying hard, they seem to be helpful....they probably just need a little push from a 10,000 member site to change their fortunes a bit.

For me, I think A'gon prices are fair enough (as a layman), but their system is old and without innovation. When I log on after 10PM (California time) they are always updating their server contents...it takes minutes to open up an ad to view it.There is no 'Favorite Seller' feature, or 'Items Watching' to return to quickly. Their search function is rudimentary, at best. They don't have to invent anything - ebay has plenty of bright folks trailblazing - just adopt them as needed. I do think they are now gouging the dealers...many have told me they are now paying much higher amounts to A'gon monthly to sell their gear.

NOTE: All of this may never take effect (there are lots of things to tend to at AC) or it may not happen for some time...it is just talking points to ponder at this time.

Please offer up options and opinions.....but, remember, nothing may come of it but a conversation (at least we are avoiding another cable shoot-out this way

)

brj · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 May 2007, 07:09 pm »

John, it might be worth splitting that (potentially very interesting) conversation into a different thread to widen the discussion...

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 May 2007, 07:25 pm »

You are, as it happens quite often, entirely correct. Thanks, Brian

zapper7 · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 May 2007, 07:36 pm »

I think the AudioxSell idea is a great one. I have posted a couple of items there, but they sold faster on Agon.
I believe it would be of mutual benefit for both parties

Mike Dzurko · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 May 2007, 07:44 pm »

Partnering with AudioxSell makes a lot of sense. They do seem to be a great group that would work honestly w/ AC and the members. Audiogon is great, but it would be nice to see another strong option for selling used gear. And rather than have John have to put in a ton of work and a bunch or money, supporting and working w/ AudioxSell could provide the service will building BOTH sites.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 May 2007, 07:49 pm »

I vote for partnering with Audioxsell.com -

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 May 2007, 07:51 pm »

Please note...not a thing has been discussed with AudioXsell yet. They are finding out this idea the same time as you.

We don't know if throwing our resources behind them is even a good idea...we don't know them, or their finances, or programming abilities. So, please don't anyone get ramped up on the idea - it was merely brought up by another Council Member (he can pipe up and take credit if he'd like to) in passing...and it's worthy of discussion.

We don't even know how or why we'd link to them potentially....it's all collecting and formative at this point

Again, all of this may never take effect (there are lots of things to tend to at AC) or it may not happen for some time...it is just talking points to ponder at this time.

But, it's great to get feedback from everyone on this.

Bigfish · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 May 2007, 08:19 pm »

As a relatively new member of AudioCircle I really enjoy the information exchange on this site. I also like the fact that as a member I have an opportunity to purchase or to sell used equipment to/from other members at a better price than on ebay or Audiogon. However, as AudioCircle Membership is free I do not believe it is fair to expect Circle Facilitators to incur extra cost and work without being compensated. If it is decided to continue the Trading Post I do not believe the charges should be as high as Ebay or the other outlets. I also believe the Trading Post section of AudioCircle should not be expanded outside of its current format because it would make this more of a commercial site. If that is the desire I would also recommend joining forces with AudioXSell.

Regards,

Ken

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 May 2007, 08:51 pm »

Ken (others) - thanks for your input

For all the hours the Global Mods and other facilitators put in here...it really pales next to the hours JohnR spends updating this site (dang good thing he's a Geek and enjoys much of it

). He does so for zero pay....and his kind of work commands US$100 +++ were he to barter it in open market.

For reasons already commented upon, 'teaming' up with AudioXSell is completely unknown entity to us fraught with potential risks, and expanding Trading Post to something more professional is time consuming and costly. After all this, it may end up that we do nothing and just carry on Trading Post as it is.

I don't want anybody to think that change is imminent....it is very, very, very much in discussion stage only.

cryoparts · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 May 2007, 11:06 pm »

I think that's a fantastic idea. It has worked out well for S'phile and A'gon. I've dealt with AudioXsell and Tom for over a year now and they've been great to work with.

My $.02.

Lee

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 16 May 2007, 07:00 pm

Another idea tossed around was to team up with AudioXsell and let them handle it all....as they already have the framework in place to do it. Those folks seem to be trying hard, they seem to be helpful....they probably just need a little push from a 10,000 member site to change their fortunes a bit.

macrojack · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 May 2007, 11:54 pm »

I can't see far enough into this issue to recommend anything, but the fact that my input is being sought is refreshing. When was the last time Audiogon asked for your opinion or preferences? I think that fact alone illustrates why so many of us are fed up with Audiogon and their disregard for our needs and wishes. My sense is that all they want is our money and they feel they've earned an entitlement to it by eliminating their competition. That is why I am advocating for another viable option. It needn't be free or even all that cheap, just so it has some interactive sense about it.

I really appreciate the fact that AC will print what I write. The censorship on Audiogon is unbearable and uneven.

Audiovista · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 May 2007, 12:10 am »

That is a great idea and I also support a nominal listing fees. The suggested rates are more than fair, and free ads for listings under $50 is also good. I would suggest maybe rising $50 limit to $100 for Trading Post.

Support of Audioxsell.com and maybe hificlassifieds.com by AC members may be what they need to become competition to a'gon. But I would definitely like that it goes through AC, if possible.

Well, hope it becomes real, real soon

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 May 2007, 12:59 am »

wow - I never post (and rarely read) over at Audiogon....what reason do they have for such heavy-handed moderation there? What are they protecting against?

I'm pretty much the heavy among JoshK / MaxCast / JohnR (ie, the other Global Mods) and I really think three times before anyone is censored...and at worst, it's generally only admonishment. I've heard it said over and over again that they are heavy handed over at A'gon forum.....as has likewise been said that at AudioAsylum (again, never posted there) it's a free-for-all because its wholly un-moderated.

You can't please everyone I know and everyone is surely different...I just hope we are doing a better job of it them those two extremes are

We are at least moderating (as are the Circle Mods, of course), just not so roughly that it stifles talk amongst most audiophools

Fairness is a HUGE issue for me - and I generally think how I would like to be treated (and in fact WAS treated when I wasn't a moderator 3+ years ago) here at AudioCircle.

John

konut · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 May 2007, 01:08 am »

I seem to be the only one, so far, to say that I don't see any chaos with the present structure. I've bought a couple of items both here and at the AV123 site from people who frequented the fora on a regular basis and have nothing but good experiences so far. Is there really a pressing need to do this? Do we really NEED something more 'professionally' oriented? Especially if it involves more time/expence on the part of our benevolent dictator, the Borg. Sorry, my 'red flag' sensors become hyper when 'new and improved' is touted. 9 times out of 10 the impovement is to the pocketbook of an individual who sets something up, and then disappears. I'm not accusing anyone here of that,.........I'm just sayin'. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. My .02, + or - .02 margin of error, subjectively speaking, YMMV, etc.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #14 on:** 17 May 2007, 01:23 am »

Your 2 cents counts, konut.....that's why we are discussing it's merits.

Maybe nothing will come of it after all - but it's certainly worth discussing. It just so happens a topic about how unhappy a few were with Audiogon came up, so I brought the topic (that of a potential rival at AC) up for discussion and possible merit.

Brian Walsh · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 May 2007, 01:52 am »

I vote for the teaming up with AudioXsell. While they are new, they have most everything in place and, at least as importantly, Tom and the others at AXS seem to have the right attitude. I don't see much sense in buying expensive software and then hoping people will post ads so you break even. There are free open source packages, but there's no guarantee the one chosen won't be a headache. Better to leave it to AudioXsell, and if something happens to them then you can always change your mind and put up your own.

Teaming up with them instead of reinventing the wheel yourself has another potential benefit, that AC won't be trying to compete with others and diluting interest.

contrarian · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 May 2007, 02:36 am »

Quote

Teaming up with them instead of reinventing the wheel yourself has another potential benefit, that AC won't be trying to compete with others and diluting interest.

I agree. The sum being greater than the parts. A one-two punch and AudioGon is gone. Say goodbye to behavior control.

NealH · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 May 2007, 03:00 am »

I thought Audiocircle was meeting place for hobbyists and afficionardos to chew the cud, learn about music and equipment related things, have meets, and trade once in a while. I never considered it primarily a professional enterprise for selling equipment. So, I guess I fall into the "why try to fix something that isn't broken" camp. Audiogon has it's place, Audiocircle has it's place.

And, I think I detect some bias against Audiogon. They have never edited one of my post and, I often find the forums pack more useful information that the Audio Asylum. As well, I find their website to operate very fast. As a matter of fact, it's one of the fastest loading audio websites I know of.

JohnR · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 May 2007, 11:32 am »

Quote from: rnhood on 17 May 2007, 03:00 am

I never considered it primarily a professional enterprise for selling equipment.

It's not, we were just kicking around some ideas for fund-raising.

As far as the Trading Post goes, the only request (that I know of) for improving it is some kind of feedback system. I'd be interested to know what others ideas people might have for improving it - ?

Carlman · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 May 2007, 01:54 pm »

I really like the organization of the TP now... a lot of work went into getting it categorized... and now if I want amps, I click on amps... and browse... not sure what the 'chaos' is... It's very simple and straightforward to me.

One other thing about feedback, on Agon is that you have to approve it... so I wonder how many people approve negative feedback about themselves? Just bizarre to me.